Naval gazing.... Do you?

[floppit]

What value does introspection have?

I confess to naval gazing but I would defend it as an important element in reasoning, in social interaction and engaging with culture.

I believe as subjective beings the ability to attempt objectivity only arises from recognition that we hold bias, most efforts after that point are to counteract bias, scientific method encapsulates acknowledgement of bias coupled with actions to reduce it. My first defence for naval gazing is that without it a person remains somewhat deluded that the subjectivity in the world is caused by others rather than them.

My second defence is that learning is based as much upon hypothesis as testing, the idea is needed in order to test the idea. I would argue that we know no other human being more intimately than self, no other observation can provide as much in terms of detail, particularly in reference to the internal world of the mind and consciousness. A subjective idea is not (in my view) the best or even a valid end point but rather it's a necessary starting point and given the richness of internal information to ignore it is just plain nuts! Whether a person wishes to design a better computer operating system, or increase compliance amongst a nation with regard to the law ideas are needed to push knowledge forward - ideas and knowledge are not one in the same, one does not replace the need for the other despite what some Daily Mail readers might think but they are still a necessary requirement.

My third defence of naval gazing is in recognition of the influence of subjectivity on life quality not to mention a huge chunk of it's economy! Even if a person has a preference for science over art, given that the latter will effect their's and other's lives is it any more reasonable to attempt to only indulge in one and amputate the other? By reasonable, I mean here, to promote solid reasoning rather than a moralistic view of what's reasonable.

Then there's the social norms - naval gaze openly? Pretend never to naval gaze? Rule it out of argument? Allow it as a first step? There's a whole host of highly individualised parameters to acceptability of naval gazing, coupled with some damning judgements when others fall foul of expectations.

I'd like to invite discussion on it in it's own right and see where it leads.

[Clinton Huxley]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

[floppit]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

Having never lived in the US and being a little wary of going just by international media representation could you offer a little where the line may be and why?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

Having never lived in the US and being a little wary of going just by international media representation could you offer a little where the line may be and why?

The best example would be two New Yorkers, John and Yoko.

[floppit]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

Having never lived in the US and being a little wary of going just by international media representation could you offer a little where the line may be and why?

The best example would be two New Yorkers, John and Yoko.

Why? Actually, I'm lousy at general knowledge with celebs - I know who these people are but that's about the sum of it, even that pretty good for me! I think they would be extreme examples though from what little I do know, and to explain where the line is crossed an example nearer to it would help me more, perhaps one where people would likely disagree would lead to more information about why we think waht we do about introspection.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

Having never lived in the US and being a little wary of going just by international media representation could you offer a little where the line may be and why?

The best example would be two New Yorkers, John and Yoko.

Why? Actually, I'm lousy at general knowledge with celebs - I know who these people are but that's about the sum of it, even that pretty good for me! I think they would be extreme examples though from what little I do know, and to explain where the line is crossed an example nearer to it would help me more, perhaps one where people would likely disagree would lead to more information about why we think waht we do about introspection.

The line isn't obvious, and that's why people stray across it frequently. John and Yoko were two self-absorbed twats who thought they could end the war in Vietnam by staying naked in bed. They became convinced of their own importance, thanks in no small amount to the press.

I've lived in California, I've hung with all types out there. One couple particularly impressed me. They lived the "simple life", a "teepee" in the mountains. It was built by one of the most prestigious construction companies in the state, had two stories and a basement wine cellar and they went back and forth in SUVs. Their ritual was to greet the sun every day with some pseudo-Indian ceremony. Then they went to bed, having stayed up all night smoking pot and drinking. They had "opted out" of the "tyranny of money" (which meant they had personal assistants that bought anything they wanted.)

So, you have to know the far end of the spectrum and decide how close you want to get to that. That is then "the line".

[floppit]

So, you have to know the far end of the spectrum and decide how close you want to get to that. That is then "the line".

Each to their own, but generally I prefer to understand the more controversial middle areas than agree re the extremes and I do agree re the extremes described above - way too self indulgent!

[Bella Fortuna]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

Once I get done aligning my chakras and having my past-life regression session, and a trip to the nail salon, I'm gonna beat the shit outta you.

[maiforpeace]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

Having never lived in the US and being a little wary of going just by international media representation could you offer a little where the line may be and why?

Living here in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California I find myself surrounded by these woo-woo's. This behavior is totally self-absorbed and is quite offensive to me. If you attend occasions around here it's not uncommon for some supposedly 'self-aware"person to take it upon themselves to lead the rest of the group to meditate or visualize before a meal, at events, during a toastmaster's meeting.

So, yes, Clinton is accurately describing some Californians, I hate to admit it's true.

I do think their is great value in self reflection and contemplation though. I don't contemplate my navel usually, but I will spend quite a bit of time walking quietly in the woods.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

Having never lived in the US and being a little wary of going just by international media representation could you offer a little where the line may be and why?

Living here in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California I find myself surrounded by these woo-woo's. This behavior is totally self-absorbed and is quite offensive to me. If you attend occasions around here it's not uncommon for some supposedly 'self-aware"person to take it upon themselves to lead the rest of the group to meditate or visualize before a meal, at events, during a toastmaster's meeting.

So, yes, Clinton is accurately describing some Californians, I hate to admit it's true.

I do think their is great value in self reflection and contemplation though. I don't contemplate my navel usually, but I will spend quite a bit of time walking quietly in the woods.

And Marin County takes the cake.

[Bella Fortuna]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

Having never lived in the US and being a little wary of going just by international media representation could you offer a little where the line may be and why?

Living here in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California I find myself surrounded by these woo-woo's. This behavior is totally self-absorbed and is quite offensive to me. If you attend occasions around here it's not uncommon for some supposedly 'self-aware"person to take it upon themselves to lead the rest of the group to meditate or visualize before a meal, at events, during a toastmaster's meeting.

So, yes, Clinton is accurately describing some Californians, I hate to admit it's true.

I do think their is great value in self reflection and contemplation though. I don't contemplate my navel usually, but I will spend quite a bit of time walking quietly in the woods.

As with most stereotypes, people can always be found to fit them. I've seen my share of new-agey wackos like that, which California may have its own particular brand of, but in the overall total of people I've encountered in my life here, they're relatively few.

Even if we're the home of the Unarians and the like...

[maiforpeace]

Navel gazing is a harmless enough pastime, so long as it does not tip over into Californian style self-absorption.

Having never lived in the US and being a little wary of going just by international media representation could you offer a little where the line may be and why?

Living here in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California I find myself surrounded by these woo-woo's. This behavior is totally self-absorbed and is quite offensive to me. If you attend occasions around here it's not uncommon for some supposedly 'self-aware"person to take it upon themselves to lead the rest of the group to meditate or visualize before a meal, at events, during a toastmaster's meeting.

So, yes, Clinton is accurately describing some Californians, I hate to admit it's true.

I do think their is great value in self reflection and contemplation though. I don't contemplate my navel usually, but I will spend quite a bit of time walking quietly in the woods.

As with most stereotypes, people can always be found to fit them. I've seen my share of new-agey wackos like that, which California may have its own particular brand of, but in the overall total of people I've encountered in my life here, they're relatively few.

Even if we're the home of the Unarians and the like...

Nice name though, Unarians, it's very sexy.

[Bella Fortuna]

They are unique in the world of bizarritude, that's for sure.

[Twoflower]

Thread split new one found here
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=6073

[JOZeldenrust]

They are unique in the world of bizarritude, that's for sure.

Thanks for the introduction to the Unarians. Their entry in the Kooks Museum is quite fascinating.

For navel gazing of the worst kind, google "coberst". What a load of bollocks.