Bullshit is useful

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Sean Hayden
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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:06 pm

Seabass wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:44 am
Sean Hayden wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:01 am
He could have used the WHO test to start testing Americans, but instead he decided to wait for private American companies to come up with their own.
How is that not misleading in exactly the manner discussed in the snopes link Seabass? You posted that just a few days ago.
How is it misleading? It's exactly what happened. Still happening, really. We're still testing at a much lower rate than all other developed countries. If they can get the WHO test, why can't we? What's stopping us? I bet it will come out later that Trump's got some financial tie to the US company that's making the tests.
No, it's really not. But everything people need to see that it is not what happened is either already posted here, or available online elsewhere. There is no point repeating it.

--time to move on to the next "decision"...
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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:16 pm

--oh what the hell. The other countries aren't using the WHO test. The countries that do are those that can't develop their own. The WHO never offered a test to us. Under Obama we also made our own tests.

Now compare that with what Seabass wants you to hear....keeping in mind that it's not a defense of Trump. He still gets to be every bit of the horrible person he is. --how's that for patronizing! :lol:
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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Seabass » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:33 pm

Yes, developed countries usually make their own. We tried, and failed, and are still failing to test at an adequate rate.

Why are we testing at such a slow rate, Sean? We are a rich, technologically and scientifically advanced country. Do you think we would have been this slow to test under an Obama administration?
"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it." —From the OSS’s psychological profile of Adolf Hitler

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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:00 pm

Yes, I do, provided the initial tests failed and experts had the same attitude. It's a big mess and one not dependent on who is in the White House. We can change presidents and the multiple failure points will still exist. Like I said, what you're presenting is great for the election, but I'm not all that interested. I already know I'd never vote for a guy like Trump.

Besides, isn't it more interesting and potentially useful to know all these facts versus the rather blinkered view you're presenting?
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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by laklak » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:02 pm

I called my doc and asked about testing, just so I'd know. She said no problem, she'd write a scrip for one and there's a drive thru testing facility 2 blocks from me. Maybe we're just privileged? If so I'll take it, unashamedly.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:05 pm

Yeah, we have the drive thru version here too.
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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Seabass » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:26 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:00 pm
Yes, I do, provided the initial tests failed and experts had the same attitude. It's a big mess and one not dependent on who is in the White House. We can change presidents and the multiple failure points will still exist. Like I said, what you're presenting is great for the election, but I'm not all that interested. I already know I'd never vote for a guy like Trump.

Besides, isn't it more interesting and potentially useful to know all these facts versus the rather blinkered view you're presenting?
I dispute that I'm the one presenting the blinkered view. Since you started making excuses for Trump, you've had to employ many of the tactics that all Trump defenders are forced to use. You've moved the goalposts from "testing doesn't matter" to "testing would've been the same under Obama". You're also fixating on one aspect of his handling of the outbreak, while ignoring the bigger picture that includes numerous failings.
"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it." —From the OSS’s psychological profile of Adolf Hitler

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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:44 pm

I've not made a single excuse for Trump.

As for ignoring "numerous failings" I'm focusing on one issue at a time. I'm doing that because you and others are prone to posting long lists and moving on, gish gallop style. I mean look how long it has taken to figure out you were wrong about the testing issue!? But that one issue was presented as part of a package of many, many issues. I'll get to them too, hopefully. You've already been corrected about another: Trump cut funding, when actually funding has increased despite Trump's attempts to cut it.

I've already said the US dropped the ball on testing. The problem is that you are misrepresenting what happened there.
The Gish gallop is a technique used during debating that focuses on overwhelming an opponent with as many arguments as possible, without regard for accuracy or strength of the arguments.
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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by laklak » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:55 pm

It's always easier to have a scapegoat. That is exactly what many liberals accuse Trump of doing with Mexicans, Chinese, and other brownish people, but don't realize they're doing exactly the same thing by blaming him for everything. This tendency is tailor made for Trump, he'll point to it as proof of TDS and ride it all the way to the 2020 White House. If he wins the Dems will have no one to blame but themselves.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Seabass » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:07 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:44 pm
I've not made a single excuse for Trump.

As for ignoring "numerous failings" I'm focusing on one issue at a time. I'm doing that because you and others are prone to posting long lists and moving on, gish gallop style. I mean look how long it has taken to figure out you were wrong about the testing issue!?
I'm not wrong, you are.
Sean Hayden wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:44 pm
But that one issue was presented as part of a package of many, many issues. I'll get to them too, hopefully. You've already been corrected about another: Trump cut funding, when actually funding has increased despite Trump's attempts to cut it.
I was wrong on that one. Lemmy corrected me there. See? I can admit when I'm wrong.
Sean Hayden wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:44 pm
I've already said the US dropped the ball on testing. The problem is that you are misrepresenting what happened there.
The Gish gallop is a technique used during debating that focuses on overwhelming an opponent with as many arguments as possible, without regard for accuracy or strength of the arguments.
"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it." —From the OSS’s psychological profile of Adolf Hitler

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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:15 pm

So, was the WHO standing by with thousands of tests when we discovered a flaw in some of ours? What do you mean when you say we could have just used the WHO test at that point, and how do you envision that would have worked?

Why did you present it as Trump refusing when in reality the CDC was following protocol?
However, WHO told PolitiFact that the organization had never discussed providing testing kits to the United States, and The Washington Post reported that it’s typical, historically, for the U.S. to develop its own methods under such circumstances:
In an interview with CNN on March 12, 2020, Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, stated that it would have been “nice to have” the WHO tests as a back-up to the CDC’s tests, but characterized it as a case of hindsight being 20/20.
Although Trump’s political opponents and some media sources accused his administration of “refusing” to use the WHO test, Fauci’s comment and various credible news reports on the topic indicate that the CDC has a standard procedure for handling diagnostic tests during an outbreak, and that protocol doesn’t include using tests provided by WHO (or any other external organization).”
Why speculate that Trump is probably connected to a private firm manufacturing the test kits if you already knew it was standard procedure and what was done under Obama?

For you to try to say now that you haven't misrepresented this is surreal.
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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Seabass » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:26 pm

laklak wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:55 pm
It's always easier to have a scapegoat. That is exactly what many liberals accuse Trump of doing with Mexicans, Chinese, and other brownish people, but don't realize they're doing exactly the same thing by blaming him for everything. This tendency is tailor made for Trump, he'll point to it as proof of TDS and ride it all the way to the 2020 White House. If he wins the Dems will have no one to blame but themselves.
False equivalence. The President of the United States of America has a great deal of power. The Mexican dude who mows your lawn doesn't.
"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it." —From the OSS’s psychological profile of Adolf Hitler

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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by laklak » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:33 pm

I'm not sure what that has to do with it, I'm talking about scapegoating.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Seabass » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:38 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:15 pm
So, was the WHO standing by with thousands of tests when we discovered a flaw in some of ours? What do you mean when you say we could have just used the WHO test at that point, and how do you envision that would have worked?

Why did you present it as Trump refusing when in reality the CDC was following protocol?
However, WHO told PolitiFact that the organization had never discussed providing testing kits to the United States, and The Washington Post reported that it’s typical, historically, for the U.S. to develop its own methods under such circumstances:
In an interview with CNN on March 12, 2020, Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, stated that it would have been “nice to have” the WHO tests as a back-up to the CDC’s tests, but characterized it as a case of hindsight being 20/20.
Although Trump’s political opponents and some media sources accused his administration of “refusing” to use the WHO test, Fauci’s comment and various credible news reports on the topic indicate that the CDC has a standard procedure for handling diagnostic tests during an outbreak, and that protocol doesn’t include using tests provided by WHO (or any other external organization).”
Why speculate that Trump is probably connected to a private firm manufacturing the test kits if you already knew it was standard procedure and what was done under Obama?

For you to try to say now that you haven't misrepresented this is surreal.
Do you think we can't get the WHO test? Do you think the WHO is barring us from getting it? If other countries have access to it, why don't we? I don't know the exact process, but I find it hard to believe that we can't get that test if we want it. It's even harder to believe that we couldn't be testing more if those in power wanted it.

"Deconstruction of the administrative state." That was Bannon's motto. It's the Republican modus operandi. We are seeing the consequences of that governing philosophy unfold before us.

And yes, I speculated about Trump possibly possibly making money off the test. What's wrong with that? It's not like I tried to pass it off as fact or something. I was pretty unambiguously speculating. It's not like it wouldn't be totally on brand for him.
"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it." —From the OSS’s psychological profile of Adolf Hitler

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Re: Bullshit is useful

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:07 pm

Well, not knowing the exact process ought to make you cautious about claiming what could/should have been done.

And yes, I speculated about Trump possibly possibly making money off the test. What's wrong with that? It's not like I tried to pass it off as fact or something. I was pretty unambiguously speculating. It's not like it wouldn't be totally on brand for him.
It is a speculation that serves to strengthen your mischaracterization.
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