Without free will wherein lies personal responsibility?DRSB wrote:...
As for Harris, this free will stuff, what kind of will is it, if it is not free?
As for Harris: this free will stuff
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As for Harris: this free will stuff
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
A contradiction in terms: if it is not free, is it a will?
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
Indeed.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Details on how to do that can be found here.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
Robert Sopolsky: Life and free will...
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Details on how to do that can be found here.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
Even if free will is an illusion, behaving as if it is real seems like a reasonable option. The rule of law also benefits from the assumption that people (with some specific exemptions) have free will, and therefore can be assigned responsibility for their actions, and their consequences.
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!
And my gin!
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
To some extent I accept the conceit of free will as a practical necessity, but as Jim hints, if we accept the mounting evidence that free will as we've traditionally understood it is a kind of illusion--that there's a complex of influencing factors which determine our action in any given situation; that our decisions are rarely reasoned but merely expressions of evolved animal behaviour--then the idea that, say, criminals are bad people because their behaviour transgresses certain socially agreed rules becomes difficult to maintain. Without personal responsibility the notions of morality and ethics become moot.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Details on how to do that can be found here.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
Determinism and free will - http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 38&t=51729 last post Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:35 pm
Free Will - http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 38&t=50856 last post Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:17 pm
Free Will - http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 23&t=50633 last post Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:55 pm
Free Will. (Split from "She is so proud of being fat") - http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=24077
Free will? - http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... =38&t=9788
Free will, the bible and Jesus and stuff - http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=4201
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
.
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
I'm not taking personal responsibility for that.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Details on how to do that can be found here.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
I wasn't me. It musta been somebody what look like me.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
Aside from the usual, and often inconclusive arguments for and against free will, there is a new element I don’t think I’ve seen discussed, and that is the status of the issue in a universe that may well split an almost infinite number of times every second as the quantum fizz generates and branches off an infinite number of times. In such a universe you will have made every choice there is to make on any given subject. In effect whether you have a choice or are free to do so becomes relevant only to the tiny instance of the multiverse your puny one dimensional presence thinks it occupies. In a universe where you have made all available choices the freedom or otherwise to do so becomes irrelevant.
At this juncture I am freely choosing to jump into my flying car and pop out to Joe’s Martian Moondogs for a takeaway.
At this juncture I am freely choosing to jump into my flying car and pop out to Joe’s Martian Moondogs for a takeaway.
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
That is a really interesting question but whenever I've tried to discuss it in the past it rapidly descends into augments with people insisting that there is free will so therefore there's no point in having the original discussion.Brian Peacock wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:21 amWithout free will wherein lies personal responsibility?
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
The best I've done with this is to say that we are responsible by degrees.PsychoSerenity wrote:That is a really interesting question but whenever I've tried to discuss it in the past it rapidly descends into augments with people insisting that there is free will so therefore there's no point in having the original discussion.Brian Peacock wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:21 amWithout free will wherein lies personal responsibility?
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
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.
"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.
Details on how to do that can be found here.
.
"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
While, if true, that is an interesting, and perhaps informative notion, perhaps ... yet in an absolute sense we nonetheless experience time as a linear strand, as a singular causal sequence. It matters naught that another version of you is splashing out on a pair of Swedish airline stewardesses off the Tenhausser Gate, the fact is that you are not that person, and you only have your own linear strand of causality to account for.Rum wrote:Aside from the usual, and often inconclusive arguments for and against free will, there is a new element I don’t think I’ve seen discussed, and that is the status of the issue in a universe that may well split an almost infinite number of times every second as the quantum fizz generates and branches off an infinite number of times. In such a universe you will have made every choice there is to make on any given subject. In effect whether you have a choice or are free to do so becomes relevant only to the tiny instance of the multiverse your puny one dimensional presence thinks it occupies. In a universe where you have made all available choices the freedom or otherwise to do so becomes irrelevant.
At this juncture I am freely choosing to jump into my flying car and pop out to Joe’s Martian Moondogs for a takeaway.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.
Details on how to do that can be found here.
.
"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff
We are not a unified entity or mind; I read a book once about the modular brain, how different parts work completely dissociated from one another, this is "how good people do bad things". Also dissociation and adopting different identities, this article tackles this:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018 ... r-identity?
fbclid=IwAR2GCIOnyuq85dHdyiINce10nFwZqd4Fu6g_0oIEPrqecuRa_ve0mq3Elsw
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018 ... r-identity?
fbclid=IwAR2GCIOnyuq85dHdyiINce10nFwZqd4Fu6g_0oIEPrqecuRa_ve0mq3Elsw
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