Hermit wrote:[
Forty Two wrote:I would love for you to note, and link to if possible, where you think Marx describes "what communism is supposed to be" -- the bits you think are supportive of the notion that it would be a good thing if it works as it is supposed to, and the bit that you think describes with some degree of specificity how it works and how it comes about.
Would you really? That's awfully nice of you, but I must beg off. You see, I regard communism, particularly the Marxist variety, as a preposterous pipe dream. It cannot possibly work as it is supposed to, so I do not see a point in wasting time describing how it might work if it could work. May as well try to describe how a square circle could be constructed and what it might be good for if we somehow succeeded.
Then I guess we agree. Not sure what you're disputing, if anything. I regard communism as a preposterous pipe dream which cannot possibly work in a positive way - however, I would add that nobody even knows how it's "supposed" to work. Marx himself never explained how he thought it would work (not beyond the withering away of the state" bit). So, if you know how it's "supposed to work" I would be much obliged if you would set forth what that is, with a citation would be helpful. If you don't want to, that's fine. However, your expression of the view that it cannot work as it is "supposed to" seems to presuppose knowledge of how it is supposed to work.
You got me on the "most of" Marx bit. That's not an accurate way of putting it. What I meant was that I read most of his major works. I should just say I have read a lot of Marx over and over again, far more than the average person, and I suspect far more than most people here. But, my only point to even talk about what I've read is that when people call me a "retard" or suggest that I don't approve of communism because I'm too stupid to have understood what Marx was saying is rreally rather silly. I don't think you've done that, but others here have.
To be clear, the bits I have read include: The Communist Manifesto, of course (scary piece of writing, that) - Das Kapital (three volume set that I own), Critique of the Gotha Program and Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, On the Jewish Question, and I have a copy of a book called Essential Writings of Karl Marx (which has the CM and some of the Manuscripts of 1844, and Wage Labor and Capital, along with the Critique of the Gotha Program). There is a fair bit I haven't read, obviously. But what I have read is fairly substantial, I think.
I find it really surprising that folks who seem to view it favorably (that's apparently not you) almost invariably can't describe what would be good about it. The dictatorship of the proletariat sounds positively dreadful, and I've never heard anyone defend it as a good in and of itself - it's means to the end of the glorious full communism - but not one single person - Karl Marx included - has described what full communism would look like. And, when some (not you) state they aren't going to be arsed to "coach" me on it because I'm apparently not able to fathom the eminently lucid writings of dear Karl, it strikes me as rather telling -- my bet is they know neither jack, nor shit, about it.
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Hermit, if you can read the Communist Manifesto, the Critique of the Gotha Program, and the Civil War in France, and come away with an approving view of what Marx's Communism would bring about (first half, dictatorship of the proletariat), then I would love for you to explain your view on that.
You seem to presume that criticising laissez faire capitalism means I must prefer Marxism. What gives you the impression? How many more times must I post that my preference is a mixed economy and all it entails? How many more times need I reiterate that I'd rather live in a capitalist country than China or North Korea?
No - hence the conditional phrase "if" you can come away with an approving view. If you don't come away with an approving view, then we're in agreement and I have no argument with you on that point. I don't think you have to love communism to hate laissez faire capitalism.
I think we agree far more than we disagree, and this thread isn't about where you'd rather live.
If we agree, we agree - no need to force ourselves into a fight about it.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar