Magic mushrooms

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Sean Hayden
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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:17 pm

-meh, I'd gladly trade all my trips and more for a brilliant mathematicians mind

--//--

I don't think I've ever even read a good definition of consciousness. :sigh: But, if we assume that other animals are conscious, then shouldn't we be able to piece together something of an account of its evolutionary history? Then combine that with what makes our brand unique, like our skills at abstraction, for a complete picture.

Then put it all in a robot...

Then :hairfire:

:biggrin:

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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by DRSB » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:33 pm

Who can define consciousness versus awareness?

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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:40 pm

That's fine, but most people seem to mean more by it even if they can't say exactly what.

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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:20 am

Rum wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Rum wrote:Even if it is impossible for psychedelics to actually spark evolutionary development there is a lot of evidence that they create 'unnatural' connections between parts of the brain that don't normally 'speak' to each other. It is conceivable, at least that such a process kick started some form of consciousness hitherto not experienced by primitive hominids.

I know that I experienced other forms of consciousness - ones I could never begin to describe while smashed out of my gourd. I brought at least some of that back with me to the 'real world'.
Wiithout an explanation for how those 'unnatural connections between parts of the brain that don't normally speak to each other' might be inheritable and persist across generations it remains in the realms of a good idea for a story.

As for 'other forms of consciousness', I think we use language like that to bridge the gap between indescribable experiences and the so-called 'real world', but it's not an 'other' kind of consciousness in the discrete and unique sense the words imply, just the disruption and dissolution of normal cognitive process brought on by induced changes in brain chemistry. To this extent, a trip is a functionally impoverishedd, inferior, or compromised state of cognition when compared to our everyday experience.
I don't see how you can use value judgments about various forms of consciousness as above. Altered consciousness as experienced with LSD and similar substances are I will accept 'disabling' in the sense that one can't generally function properly in terms of survival, work and purposeful activity.
Well, there you go then - the effect of LSD on cognition is functionally compromising. It's not a value judgement to point this out, nor does it dismiss any profound, significant, or just enjoyable, experiences some us have had on LSD.
Rum wrote:But some of the experiences I had were without doubt and expansion of my mental function in some way - making new connections, conceptually, cognitively and even emotionally now and again.
I'd agree. The propensity for LSD to induce a bombardment of disjointed perceptions and random associations, with all that that leads to when layered up with our pattern-seeking brains and our emotionally laden responses to stimuli can lead one to places one wouldn't have travelled to otherwise. My point is that language which presumes that LSD-type compounds somehow offer us a personal gateway into 'other types of consciousness' that 'expand our mental function', as if these 'altered states' exist in and of themselves as discrete but otherwise inaccessible 'higher' regions or realms, is misleading with regards to the nature of LSD-type tripping. In essence I'm disavowing notions that LSD-type compounds give us common access to profundity - if we find anything profound when we're tripping then that's something we've brought to the party ourselves.
Rum wrote:It is conceivable that cave men tripping out on ergot or mushrooms could have had experiences that led them to new ways of conceptualising the world around them.
Indeed, it is conceivable. Let's also remember that psychoactive compounds have been used for religious purposes across history and that a great number of societies and communities have used them in conjunction with mythical narratives in an attempt to explain reality (whatever that is) and the world around them.
Rum wrote:How of course that could affect them at the level of DNA is another matter.
The study of epigentics is showing us that exposing one generation to certain environmental factors can have a direct effect on the gene expression of subsequent generations - but as yet I don't think we can say that re-wiring your brain on acid falls into that bracket. ;)

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by JimC » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:38 am

I once combined magic mushrooms and mescaline. During the trip, I was sure 2 ancient entities were having an amiable discussion within my skull...
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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by DRSB » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:26 am

You can be aware of things and not be conscious of them, or you can be conscious of things you are not aware of, and of course you can be both aware and conscious of something at the same time like you can be neither aware nor conscious. (This is a hypnotic induction).

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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by Tyrannical » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:43 am

A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by DRSB » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:46 am

Consciousness Depends on Tubulin Vibrations Inside Neurons, Anesthesia Study Suggests
Anesthetic alterations of collective terahertz oscillations in tubulin correlate with clinical potency: Implications for anesthetic action and post-operative cognitive dysfunction Craddock TJA, Kurian P, Preto J, Sahu K, Hameroff SR, Klobukowski M, Tuszynski JA.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/consci ... y-suggests

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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:39 pm

DRSB wrote:You can be aware of things and not be conscious of them, or you can be conscious of things you are not aware of, and of course you can be both aware and conscious of something at the same time like you can be neither aware nor conscious. (This is a hypnotic induction).
I think this also highlights the fuzziness, and the failure, of language when it comes to talking about such things. It makes parsing statements like the one above rather tricky.

For example, from a regular dictionary...
  • Synonyms for 'awareness': consciousness, recognition, realization, cognizance, perception, apprehension, understanding, grasp, appreciation.
  • Synonyms for 'consciousness': awareness, wakefulness, alertness, responsiveness, sentience.
Language is vague on such matters, and it means if we often have to parse what's being said into something else first, in this case perhaps...
  • "You can understand something but not perceive/experience it, or can can perceive/experience something but not understand it, and of course your can both perceive/experience something and understanding it."
Of course, we might not understand something we experience, but it doesn't stop us trying--and often we'll alight on some explanation that seems to satisfy the conditions of our perception and just 'go with that' as it were. We jump to conclusions, some of which are borne out and some of which are not. This applies to regular life experiences as well as to psychedelic experiences - it's just that with the psychedelic experience where we jump off from often bears very little relation to where we land.

What does this mean? Well it means you probably don't want to have me around when you're doing LSD. I'm such a buzzkiller. :biggrin:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:15 pm

I think she's saying she can change the color of the vase in my mind without me noticing.

I think she's dangerous.

:ninja:

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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by DRSB » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:12 pm

Nice induction, Brian!
It is even more complicated across languages. There is this nice word "mind" in English, there is no equivalent in German. You can try to convey it by saying Geist, Vernunft, Verstand, depending on the context, but none of these is really what the mind in English covers. Not even Hermit can help here.

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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:31 pm

Yeah, sorry DRSB. With your use of English being better than most native speakers I forget that it's your second or third language. :D Which makes me think that there is a handy German word we could apply when talking about LSD-type experiences: the psychedelic gesalt! In fact, LSD-type experience ram home the fact that, at some fundamental level, we operate by drawing out meaning from the chaotic, disparate artefacts of our perception, and as if by magic still manage to make a coherent whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Told ya, a right buzzkiller.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by DRSB » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:35 pm

Thanks!
I am wondering about these mushrooms though! Animals eat them too, what is the effect on them?

And Gesalt sounds great!

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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:48 pm


Now you know why Rudolph flew! :santa:
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Magic mushrooms

Post by DRSB » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:56 pm

This may explain even Jesus's resurrection! He'd been talking to his apostles how he'd rise up on the third day after his death.

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