Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:46 am

JimC wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Pappa wrote:Having studied art at university I can confirm that postmodernism is utter bollocks. It's basically rhetorical sleight of hand and intellectual masturbation with no substance whatsoever.
...yet can you say that intellectual masturbation and lack of substance are not valid paradigms?
Real masturbation has no lack of substance... :tea:
Some would take issue with that. I don't give a toss.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:57 pm

...neither of you know jack about masturbation.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:05 pm

rainbow wrote:
Forty Two wrote: In other words, Postmodernism is incoherent, internally inconsistent, and pointless.
In your reality perhaps.
Reality is a social construct.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:11 pm

Rum wrote:Clearly there is such a thing. Here is a widely accepted definition:

"A late 20th-century style and concept in the arts, architecture, and criticism, which represents a departure from modernism and is characterized by the self-conscious use of earlier styles and conventions, a mixing of different artistic styles and media, and a general distrust of theories".

Whether one chooses to take any notice of it or for that matter wishes to discard general analytical discussion around the subject of the arts generally is another matter.
Postmodernism is a Hobbesian trap among competing identity groups and competing "truths."
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Rum » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:22 pm

I'm no defender of pretentious horseshit and academic self indulgence but I can't see how you can call it that. Preemptive? How exactly?

The reality is that in academic circles the term is recognised. Poor saps like my daughter have to get to grips with this 'construction' however artificial it may be - it is used in all art schools now it would appear. I am sure academia is full of such self referential terms and descriptors - fertile ground for PhDs and such no doubt - where many of them probably originated come to that.

When one actually gets to grips with it - there is plenty of stuff out there now which the label fits pretty nicely - if indeed you want a label.

I spent an hour this afternoon getting up to speed with the history of ceramics in the 20th and 21st Century. Gripping stuff.

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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by JimC » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:18 pm

I'm sure there are interesting historical trends to be found, if they can be discerned amongst the academic verbiage...
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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:32 pm

Much academic writing is technical in nature and produced for a specific, interested and educated readership, and thus the terminology and references are, being pertinent to the subject of discourse, not always readily accessible to the casual reader.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by JimC » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:48 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:Much academic writing is technical in nature and produced for a specific, interested and educated readership, and thus the terminology and references are, being pertinent to the subject of discourse, not always readily accessible to the casual reader.
That's true, but there is also a place for serious commentary on a topic for the non-specialist. The best of science writing, for example, can take reasonably educated and interested readers on fascinating journeys, if care is taken with the language used; not dumbing down, but carefully pruning excessive amounts of specialised jargon, and/or clearly defining terms that are vital...
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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by rainbow » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:05 am

Forty Two wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Forty Two wrote: In other words, Postmodernism is incoherent, internally inconsistent, and pointless.
In your reality perhaps.
Reality is a social construct.
:nono: :nono:
How many times do we need to explain this to you?
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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by rainbow » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:06 am

JimC wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:Much academic writing is technical in nature and produced for a specific, interested and educated readership, and thus the terminology and references are, being pertinent to the subject of discourse, not always readily accessible to the casual reader.
That's true, but there is also a place for serious commentary on a topic for the non-specialist. The best of science writing, for example, can take reasonably educated and interested readers on fascinating journeys, if care is taken with the language used; not dumbing down, but carefully pruning excessive amounts of specialised jargon, and/or clearly defining terms that are vital...
:cheer: :cheer: :tut: :tut: :cheer: :cheer:

What you said.
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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Forty Two » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:39 pm

rainbow wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Forty Two wrote: In other words, Postmodernism is incoherent, internally inconsistent, and pointless.
In your reality perhaps.
Reality is a social construct.
:nono: :nono:
How many times do we need to explain this to you?
:whisper: Social Constructs are Reality :whisper:
Reality is a social construct.
Social constructs are reality.
Therefore, social constructs are social constructs.
QED
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Forty Two » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:45 pm

rainbow wrote:
JimC wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:Much academic writing is technical in nature and produced for a specific, interested and educated readership, and thus the terminology and references are, being pertinent to the subject of discourse, not always readily accessible to the casual reader.
That's true, but there is also a place for serious commentary on a topic for the non-specialist. The best of science writing, for example, can take reasonably educated and interested readers on fascinating journeys, if care is taken with the language used; not dumbing down, but carefully pruning excessive amounts of specialised jargon, and/or clearly defining terms that are vital...
:cheer: :cheer: :tut: :tut: :cheer: :cheer:

What you said.
That is in accord with socially constructed versions of meta-reality. But the androcentric scientific and meta-scientific evidence that the commentary is largely scientific and specialized is considered overwhelming and largely uncontroversial to the western worldview. Reasonably educated and interested readers are an enacted social construct that is both damaging and problematic for society and future generations.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Rum » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:52 pm

Most of human experience is embedded in a socially constructed context, including of course language. We agree on the meanings of words and language and when they are ambiguous or where understood meanings diverge we understand that too.

If one chooses to communicate in a given manner - one that others of the same ilk - also agree upon then the content of those communications is perfectly valid and says what those using it wish it to say.

One can opt out of the 'dialect' (which in a way is what it is) or even dismiss it, but those using it understand what they are discussing and that validates its use.

So there.

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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by JimC » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:09 pm

Rum wrote:Most of human experience is embedded in a socially constructed context, including of course language. We agree on the meanings of words and language and when they are ambiguous or where understood meanings diverge we understand that too.

If one chooses to communicate in a given manner - one that others of the same ilk - also agree upon then the content of those communications is perfectly valid and says what those using it wish it to say.

One can opt out of the 'dialect' (which in a way is what it is) or even dismiss it, but those using it understand what they are discussing and that validates its use.

So there.
The main trouble is, Rum, that there is a significant group within post modern thought that, rather than only applying their language and social models to discussions within their academic specialised subject, wish to apply their often incoherent paradigm to the whole of human endeavour. Laughably, this frequently includes science, an area they clearly know very little about...
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Re: Does Post-Modernism Objectively Exist?

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:25 pm

I only find out about those guys from the Daily Mail, so generally it doesn't bother me.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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