Problematic Stuff

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:26 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:A counterpoint to the relentless drumbeat about 'left wing scum' and no-platforming at elite secular institutions of higher education in the US.

'The Invisible Free Speech Crisis'
Shane Claiborne is not an imposing presence. A Christian pacifist, he’s known within evangelical circles for his opposition to the death penalty, for his embrace of immigrants and refugees, and for helping found an intentional community in Philadelphia called the Simple Way. He’s a regular visitor to Christian college campuses. On Friday, Claiborne, working alongside a prominent roster of Christian leaders that included the Rev. William J. Barber, held a revival in Lynchburg, Virginia. Lynchburg being the home of Liberty University, Claiborne reached out to Liberty’s president, Jerry Falwell Jr., to invite him to come pray with fellow Christians. But this weekend, Claiborne reported that Falwell had refused his invitation. Further, Liberty’s campus police department threatened him with arrest if he set a toe on campus.

What’s so dangerous about a Christian pacifist? Claiborne did not come to Lynchburg to burn the Falwell family’s city upon a hill. In fact, he shares a number of positions with Liberty’s leadership, including on abortion. It appears that Falwell’s objection to Claiborne stems from the latter’s commitment to non-violence; he is set to publish a new book making the Christian case for gun control.

...

The no-platforming of Shane Claiborne inspired no outrage outside the evangelical world. There were no columns about it in The New York Times, The Washington Post, or New York magazine. Bill Maher has not invited dissenting students onto his television show, even though they exist. Erin Covey, a Liberty journalism major, told Religion News Service on Saturday that Falwell himself blocked her from covering Claiborne’s revival for the student newspaper. “I do think that currently the level of oversight we have does make it difficult to pursue the accurate journalism that we’re taught in classes,” she told RNS.

There are important differences between the no-platforming of controversial speakers at secular universities and the wholesale suppression of speech at Christian universities, starting with the latter’s competing claim of freedom of religion. But Falwell’s actions violate the purpose of even a Christian university, which retains a mission to develop the intellect. There is a free speech crisis on campus, but it’s not at Yale or Middlebury. It’s at Liberty University and schools like it.

...

Everyone wants to talk about who gets to speak on campus now. The question is a worthy one, considered on its own. Who does get to speak on campus? It depends on who you are, and where you are located. Often, it depends on power.

There are many who argue, in the pages of this country’s most respected periodicals, that this power lies with the intolerant left. But the evidence of real, widespread speech suppression shows it lies elsewhere, on the right. This, in turn, suggests that the ostensible champions of free speech are more interested in criticizing campus identity politics than in protecting speech.
What's the evidence of real widespread speech suppression?

I would agree, though, that the right wingers are just as dangerous in this regard as the left wingers. Both extremes seek to suppress speech, just different speech. It has seemed to me that the lion's share of the attacks on free speech on campuses, however, have come from from the left. Here is an example of a no-platforming on the right, at a private, religious university. This is a danger, but hardly evidence that widespread suppression from right wingers on campus is greater than from the left.

The point made in the article is that all the examples of university speech policing and censorship in mainstream articles is just as bad as the right wing censorship of the religious right "conservative coalition" Liberty University. If that's the comparison we're going to make with Harvard, Yale, Berkely, Columbia, Wilfred-Laurier, Evergreen, Northwestern, Middlebury College, etc. -- the long list of liberal, secular, mostly public universities should comport themselves like the private business set up by Jerry fucking Falwell as a specifically religious institution?

As has been pointed out, there is a huge difference between no platforming at a public, secular university and at a private university. And, among private universities, there are those who portray themselves as secular, liberal, education-oriented institutions versus a university that is dedicated to a specific brand of Christianity with a stated "purpose and mission" to develop "Christ-centered" men and women.http://www.liberty.edu/aboutliberty/index.cfm?PID=6899 Compare that to Evergreen University's purpose and mission statement - http://www.evergreen.edu/about/mission

Now, the article also suggests that nobody is paying attention to the right wing censorship, but the Washington Post covers it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... b6e775967c

But if there has been a dearth of coverage of this Claiborne fellow and Liberty University, the reason is likely (a) nobody heard of Claiborne or his group before, and they are not on the radar, and (b) nobody expects Liberty University to be a liberal campus open to heretical Christian ideas. It's not a surprise. We know that Falwell's group, and his Liberty University are religious and extremely conservative with no interest in fostering dialog and debate, and as long as they don't get public funds, they have a right to be that. Now, if they put on their mission statement that they were dedicated to a broad, liberal arts educaton, discourse, debate and critical thinking or such concepts, but then they did this, things would likely be different.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:51 pm

Heretical Christian ideas:
  • pacifism
  • opposition to the death penalty
  • embracing immigrants and refugees
  • gun control
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:55 pm

Seabass wrote:I would totally be worried about all this voter suppression if feminists and SJWs didn't pose such an enormous and immediate threat to democracy.



Naturally, the video presents things in very general, non-specific terms, referring to what so and so "interested persons" said the impact of Wisconsin's law was. Nobody explains how the voter ID system in Wisconsin works.

So, it's the ID portion they are complaining about in Wisconsin. You have to present ID when you go to vote so that the polling place can know that you are you, and that you are entitled to vote.

What ID has to be brought - two common ones are a driver license and a passport, both of which will work on their own. Not everyone has that. So, another main acceptable one is a free Wisconsin State ID. https://www.bringitwisconsin.com/

On these boards we have had this discussion a couple of times, about voter ID, most western, industrialized, first world, democratic countries require people have identification to vote. One complaint I heard from some Yerpeeins was that if it costs money to get an ID, then it might be a problem. Wisconsin's ID is free, and it is very simple to get.

So, how low of an opinion must you have of African Americans to suggest that they are unable to get an ID when it's free, and as simple as going there and asking for it.

The video also suggests it's an outrage that people can vote with "gun permits" but not "student IDs." Well, a gun permit in Wisconsin is a very demanding application, in the sense of proving your identity. To get a CCW permit (which is the only gun permit in Wisconsin), you have to provide the State with your driver license or State ID card when you apply, among other documents verifying your signature, address, and completion of required training courses.

And most importantly, if you go to the State of Wisconsin website that tells you how to vote, a CCW permit is NOT among the acceptable documents! https://www.bringitwisconsin.com/freque ... -questions

And, the video is dead wrong about college IDs in Wisconsin. Proper identification in Wisconsin includes "A photo identification card issued by a Wisconsin accredited university or college that contains date of issuance, signature of student, and an expiration date no later than two years after date of issuance."

One fucking ridiculous thing about the dopey video is that it says not allowing college IDs to be used as voter ID is racist. However, blacks are less likely to go to college, and YOU HAVE TO SHOW A PHOTO ID OF SOME KIND (STATE ISSUED) OR PRESENT A BIRTH CERTIFICATE OR PASSPORT WHEN YOU APPLY TO COLLEGE. All financial aid programs, all student grant programs, all admissions processes require identification of the person - photo ID - to apply and be enrolled. So, this video is apparently saying that it is racist to require photo IDs to go to college, because blacks are less likely to have photo IDs. And, of course, since they're less likely to have photo IDs, the requirement that ID be presented to buy certain prescription drugs, alcohol and cigarettes must also be racist.

Other acceptable alternatives to a driver license or FREE State ID card are:

Military ID from any armed services branch
Indian tribe ID
Passport
A veteran’s photo identification card issued by the Veterans Health Administration of the federal Department of Veterans Affairs
A certificate of naturalization
A driving receipt issued by Wisconsin DOT (valid for 45 days)
A FREE identification card receipt issued by Wisconsin DOT (valid for 45 days).

So, the video is about the "four worst voter suppression laws in the country." They are the top 4. The worst. And, the very first one, the top, exhibit A, the first one they want you to see and be outraged about the massive racism that is the State Wisconsin.....

...the requirement that a person identify themselves at the polls, with numerous options.... driver license, free state identification, passport, college ID (contrary to the allegation in the video), military ID, applications from driver license/free state ID, etc. etc.

AND -- AND - if you show up at the polls and you forgot your ID, or you are "unable or unwilling" to provide the ID, you can still vote by casting a "provisional ballot" so you'll be on record.



“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:03 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:The great democracy that is the USA. What a joke.
The registration office of each municipality in the Netherlands maintains a registration of all residents. Every eligible voter receives a personal polling notification by mail some weeks before the election, indicating the polling station of the voter's precinct. Voters must present their polling notification and a piece of photo ID (passport, identity card, or drivers license).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws#Netherlands

That's voter suppression when the US does it.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:49 pm



"Caitlin [somebody]" very problematic.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:26 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:The great democracy that is the USA. What a joke.
The registration office of each municipality in the Netherlands maintains a registration of all residents. Every eligible voter receives a personal polling notification by mail some weeks before the election, indicating the polling station of the voter's precinct. Voters must present their polling notification and a piece of photo ID (passport, identity card, or drivers license).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws#Netherlands

That's voter suppression when the US does it.
Well, if the state mails out the required ID to all registered voters, then no one will not be able to vote. That is very different to the US scenario...

Here, once you are registered, all you need to do is have your name ticked off at the booth, and you're ready to roll...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:48 am

Forty Two wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:The great democracy that is the USA. What a joke.
The registration office of each municipality in the Netherlands maintains a registration of all residents. Every eligible voter receives a personal polling notification by mail some weeks before the election, indicating the polling station of the voter's precinct. Voters must present their polling notification and a piece of photo ID (passport, identity card, or drivers license).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws#Netherlands

That's voter suppression when the US does it.
FFS once again your ignorance is greatly showing. That is not what happens in America. Firstly you must register your address with the town hall where you live and when you move you have to de-register and re-register. This not just for voting but for all administration eg how many schools are needed or healthcare facilities. This registration is sufficient for voting. Non-Dutch can vote in Local government elections. EU citizens can vote in EU elections. The voting cards are sent out automatically. You can vote at any voting station. There were voting stations on trains this year as well as stations.
You must have a citizens number. This you get automatically when your birth is registered or when you register with the Immigratie Nationaliteit Dienst when you come into this country. You need this number for everything and also for voting.
Almost everyone here as a passport. We are a small country. These days you can go to the town hall with proper certified photos and pick up an ID card which is good enough for the Schengen area. The vast majority have driving licences which are always valid.
That is not what happens in America now is it?
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:40 pm

In America we do not have to have a "citizens number." That's not voter suppression. It just means you don't HAVE TO have one. Almost everyone, though, has a social security number, because it's very difficult to live without one. They're easy to get. Parents get them for their kids.

In America, we do not have to "register with the municipality" when we move somewhere. We're free to move about without such official registrations. That, it seems to me, is not an oppression of any sort. Not sure what the big deal is there. You can move anonymously from city to city, if you like.

You do not have to vote in the US. It's a right, but not a legal requirement. To be able to vote, all you have to do is register to vote. Generally, one can register in person at motor vehicle offices and other government offices, or online (37 states), or by mail (50 states).

Once you've registered, all you need to do is vote, which can be done in person at local polling stations, or by mail.

I am not sure what is more onerous about the US system than yours. So what if we don't have voting booths on trains? Almost all states have early voting (so many days or weeks of voting in person) as well as voting by mail which means you can drop your ballot into any blue mailbox or at the post office, or in the little mailbox on the front of one's house or flat and put the flag up for the postman to take it.

When you say "that's not what happens in the US" - please, by all means, educate me on what happens here in the country in which I've registered to vote in three different states, and voted for the past approximately four decades. Explain to me, exactly, what's racist and "suppressive" about the US voting system.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:46 pm

Which is why your country is in the mess it is.

Try reading Voter suppression in the United States

There is enough to be read. Your country is so undemocratic it is not true anymore.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Alan B » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:27 pm

JimC wrote:Here, once you are registered, all you need to do is have your name ticked off at the booth, and you're ready to roll...
I understand that you also have compulsory voting with a fine for not voting (unless there are extenuating circumstances).
Do you have an option to 'Abstain' on the ballot paper?

Also, is Gerrymandering practised?
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:35 pm

You can make the ballot paper null and void.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by laklak » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:47 pm

If you want to vote you need to register with the local authorities, and be put on the voter rolls. Sounds like you have to do that in the Netherlands too.

I've never understood why having to prove who you are in order to vote is racist. Fuck, you have to prove who you are all the fucking time. Want a bank account? Want to rent a home? Want to buy a car? Want a driver's license? Want home, health, or auto insurance? Want an airline, bus, or train ticket? Want to rent a hotel room? Want to rent a car? Want to go on welfare or get food stamps? Want a job? Want to cash a check? Want to put your kids in school? Want a loan, credit card, mortgage? You'll need ID for that. Are we saying that there are people who need to vote who have never, ever, done ANY of those things? They live under a fucking rock or something?

If I want to buy a gun, which is a constitutional right of exactly the same importance, legally, as the right to vote, I not only have to provide ID, I have to be investigated by the Federal government to see if I'm fit to exercise that right. I see no reason voting shouldn't be treated in exactly the same way. You want to vote you register, provide your ID, and are investigated to see if you're an American citizen, whether you have felony convictions, domestic battery charges, or have been adjudicated insane. If you pass the test then you get a voter card. Hell, I'll go further. In order to get a concealed carry permit you have to take a course and show you're proficient with the weapon. If you want to vote you take a test to see if you understand how the government actually works, if you don't pass you take a course to teach you what you should fucking well already know.

Personally I'm no supporter of universal suffrage, I think most ground apes are far too stupid to be entrusted with something as serious as voting.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:54 pm

Alan B wrote:
JimC wrote:Here, once you are registered, all you need to do is have your name ticked off at the booth, and you're ready to roll...
I understand that you also have compulsory voting with a fine for not voting (unless there are extenuating circumstances).
Do you have an option to 'Abstain' on the ballot paper?
the usual practice is to scribble a dick and balls, or to write "get fucked" or similar on the ballot paper. :read:
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:58 pm

laklak wrote: If you want to vote you take a test to see if you understand how the government actually works, if you don't pass you take a course to teach you what you should fucking well already know.

Personally I'm no supporter of universal suffrage, I think most ground apes are far too stupid to be entrusted with something as serious as voting.
Yeah, I'm not that far from that point myself. I do believe in universal suffrage, but when tied with compulsory voting like in Australia you end up with all the idiots voting. At least with non-compulsory voting most of the idiots don't bother. Although, that probably means you wind up with a higher proportion of lunatics voting.. :?
Last edited by pErvinalia on Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by laklak » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:58 pm

The Feds have changed the requirements for traveling by air, you now have to have "Real ID". To get a "Real ID" you need to provide a bunch of information about yourself to prove you are who you actually say you are. Most states, including Florida, have incorporated the Real ID requirements into their driver's licenses, when I renewed mine a few years ago I needed to bring my passport to prove I was me. Some states, however, haven't implemented it and if you're a resident of one of those states and want to get on an airplane, even to fly domestically, you'll need a passport. Is that not racist by the same metric? I'm betting that the percentage of blacks who have passports is less than whites. Isn't this unconstitutionally restricting the free movement of citizens?
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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