Bullying

[tattuchu]

Look, I'm all for bullying. Whoops, I mean I'm all for putting and end to bullying. I was bullied in high school and I know it's not fun. But it seems to me that we're taking things a bit too far these days, maybe? Every day I read a news item about some instance or other of bullying. The thing is, the definition of bullying is becoming very broad. Basically if you hurt someone's feelings, that's bullying

Now here we have a case of a little boy being bullied at school:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Amelia/an ... 38928.html

One of his classmates kept calling him gay. Not cool, right? Except...he was being called gay because he had his fingernails painted. Now, his older brother, seven years old, is actually gay. hich seems odd to me in itself. How does a 7-year-old self-identify as gay? And how, as is the case, does he feel it necessary to announce it to all his classmates? Is he that determined to not have any friends?
There are other things in this article that strike me as strange. Such as this:
"When I got home from work, my son and I went somewhere quiet to talk, just the two of us. In our house that means the bathroom...There we were in the bathroom, I sitting on the toilet, my little boy cuddled into my lap, when I broached the subject..."
Uh...the fuck? I hope she had her pants on, at least, while she was sitting on the toilet

Anyway so the little one goes to school with his nails painted and...SURPRISE, he gets called a fag. Or gay, or whatever. Now, this one, the younger brother, isn't gay. But he likes to paint his nails. He went to school like that and he got teased. His mother found this out when he came home from school and she cheerily asked him how the other kids liked his nails. And, big surprise, they didn't.
Now, I don't know how much of a dick this other kid was being, if he was really bullying the nail-painting boy, or if he was just teasing him, or busting the boy's chops, or if he was simply stating his opinion. It seems like, nowadays, to hurt someone else's feelings is the absolute worst crime in the world. It's intolerable. But, I dunno, if some kid showed me his painted nails, my immediate reaction would be, "Wow, that's pretty gay." Because, let's face it, that really is pretty fucking gay. Don't I have a right to express my opinion?

Look, I'm all for not letting kids get bullied and abused. But, FFS, actions have consequences. Go to school with your nails painted and I think it's pretty reasonable and to be expected that someone's gonna call you a fag. I think the proper course of action here is to tell the boy that, yes, comments like this are hurtful but the fact of the matter is that it's not normal for boys to paint their nails, and that if you wanna paint your nails and go to school like that, some kids are gonna pick on you and you have to expect that sort of thing, that this is how real life works and Momma's not always going to be there to protect you and tell you what a perfect special angel you are.

[Gallstones]

I he had painted them black, would he still have been called "gay"?

I don't think anybody calls this guy gay....

[Gallstones]

My son, when he was 4yo, picked a jumper (a kind of dress) out of a box of clothing sent to my nieces. They were often getting these boxes from a friend of my mother's. At the time he wanted someone to send him presents too. We let him have the dress, he wore it to school--Headstart--and I took pictures.

At about 10yo he became all GQ, picky about his clothes and hygiene products, wouldn't wear or use anything that wasn't specifically for "men" or boys.

He loathes being reminded of the dress and he'd love to get hold of that picture. He's not gay.
I did have the talk with him, told him I would still love him if he was gay and would still be proud of him as long as he was honest, did things in good faith and didn't become a criminal.

[tattuchu]

I he had painted them black, would he still have been called "gay"?

I don't think anybody calls this guy gay....

I would. Gay!

No, seriously, he looks very gay to me. My gaydar is tingling like crazy.

[Svartalf]

totally depraved, definitely, but not gay... likely bi.

[Gallstones]

Dave Navarro experimented but is not gay

Rocker DAVE NAVARRO admits he has experimented sexually with other men, but insists he is not gay. The star, who is married to CARMEN ELECTRA, claims the encounters with members of the same sex actually helped convince him he is straight. Navarro tells the gay publication dot Newsmagazine, “I’ve come to realise through my experimentation over the years that I’m not gay, nor am I bisexual.”

[cronus]

Does run in family lines, sometimes. Guess if you've several relatives who are gay then as a mother you'd pick it up early and go with the grain leading to early self-identification? Bullying needs a firm adult approach no matter its cause. Social exclusion, education and more social exclusion if that does not work. Like being gay, being a brute is sometimes innate and sometimes might require confrontation with parents who carry their arguments in their fists.

[Hermit]

Yes, some kids are gonna pick on you and you have to expect that sort of thing, but that is not the same as passively accepting it, of walking away from bullying with a shrug while mumbling something like "Oh well, actions have consequences, you know" and "that's just how real life works." If we did nothing about the aspects of how real life works, we'd still be living in caves, consider donging women on the head with a club to be foreplay, treating members of other tribes as food sources, burning wrinkly old people who own black cats at the stake and so on. Change seems to be a source of irritation to you, Tatt, or maybe you even fear it. I can't see any other reason why you posted as you did.

[pErvinalia]

Look, I'm all for bullying. Whoops, I mean I'm all for putting and end to bullying. I was bullied in high school and I know it's not fun. But it seems to me that we're taking things a bit too far these days, maybe? Every day I read a news item about some instance or other of bullying. The thing is, the definition of bullying is becoming very broad. Basically if you hurt someone's feelings, that's bullying

Now here we have a case of a little boy being bullied at school:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Amelia/an ... 38928.html

One of his classmates kept calling him gay. Not cool, right? Except...he was being called gay because he had his fingernails painted. Now, his older brother, seven years old, is actually gay. hich seems odd to me in itself. How does a 7-year-old self-identify as gay? And how, as is the case, does he feel it necessary to announce it to all his classmates? Is he that determined to not have any friends?
There are other things in this article that strike me as strange. Such as this:
"When I got home from work, my son and I went somewhere quiet to talk, just the two of us. In our house that means the bathroom...There we were in the bathroom, I sitting on the toilet, my little boy cuddled into my lap, when I broached the subject..."
Uh...the fuck? I hope she had her pants on, at least, while she was sitting on the toilet

Anyway so the little one goes to school with his nails painted and...SURPRISE, he gets called a fag. Or gay, or whatever. Now, this one, the younger brother, isn't gay. But he likes to paint his nails. He went to school like that and he got teased. His mother found this out when he came home from school and she cheerily asked him how the other kids liked his nails. And, big surprise, they didn't.
Now, I don't know how much of a dick this other kid was being, if he was really bullying the nail-painting boy, or if he was just teasing him, or busting the boy's chops, or if he was simply stating his opinion. It seems like, nowadays, to hurt someone else's feelings is the absolute worst crime in the world. It's intolerable. But, I dunno, if some kid showed me his painted nails, my immediate reaction would be, "Wow, that's pretty gay." Because, let's face it, that really is pretty fucking gay. Don't I have a right to express my opinion?

Look, I'm all for not letting kids get bullied and abused. But, FFS, actions have consequences. Go to school with your nails painted and I think it's pretty reasonable and to be expected that someone's gonna call you a fag. I think the proper course of action here is to tell the boy that, yes, comments like this are hurtful but the fact of the matter is that it's not normal for boys to paint their nails, and that if you wanna paint your nails and go to school like that, some kids are gonna pick on you and you have to expect that sort of thing, that this is how real life works and Momma's not always going to be there to protect you and tell you what a perfect special angel you are.

Straya!

[tattuchu]

Yes, some kids are gonna pick on you and you have to expect that sort of thing, but that is not the same as passively accepting it, of walking away from bullying with a shrug while mumbling something like "Oh well, actions have consequences, you know" and "that's just how real life works." If we did nothing about the aspects of how real life works, we'd still be living in caves, consider donging women on the head with a club to be foreplay, treating members of other tribes as food sources, burning wrinkly old people who own black cats at the stake and so on. Change seems to be a source of irritation to you, Tatt, or maybe you even fear it. I can't see any other reason why you posted as you did.

You'd make a better therapist than my therapist
I do hate change but in the case of bullying I think change is good. I'm glad it's being addressed. My point is that I think we may have gone too far and reached the point of absurdity in labeling absolutely everything as bullying. Certainly, if your kid is picked on, if one kid is saying unkind things to another kid, it should be addressed. My objection is in automatically calling normal human behavior bullying, and also in taking no personal responsibility in preventing or avoiding bullying/being picked on in the first place. I mean, this woman seems genuinely surprised that her son going to school with his nails painted is going to engender some kind of negative response from the other kids. Jesus Christ, what kind of fucked up, upside-down world are we living in now?

[MiM]

Tatt, I think you got that incredibly wrong. To start with, you should listen to Emma Watsons resent UN speech on "he for she". Focus especially on the later part (from 7:57 in this video). Second read the text you refer to again, and think if your account of it does it justice. Third think again on what you consider "normal human behavior". Did all kids bully the guy? Would you think the same behavior would be normal among adults? and Fourth, if you still find it normal, why would it being normal mean it isn't bullying?

[tattuchu]

Second read the text you refer to again, and think if your account of it does it justice.

Without knowing any of the details, it's impossible to say. That's why I made it a point in my post to say, "Now, I don't know how much of a dick this other kid was being...etc..."

Third think again on what you consider "normal human behavior". Did all kids bully the guy? Would you think the same behavior would be normal among adults? and Fourth, if you still find it normal, why would it being normal mean it isn't bullying?

Normal human behavior is reacting to a situation in a reasonable and expected fashion. Again, not sure how much of a dick this other kid was being. But I'd say his reaction was normal. Kid or adult, it doesn't matter. If someone I knew came up to me with his fingernails painted, I would have the same reaction. I would say, "Holy shit, dude, that's pretty fucking gay. What the hell is wrong with you?"
Of course I wouldn't go on and on about it. I don't know how much this kid went on about it, or how nasty he was being. I don't know. My point is that one boy calling another boy gay for having his fingernails painted is a natural reaction, an expected reaction. How can it not be? What kind of an idiot sends their little boy to school with his nails painted and then acts surprised when he gets picked on? And then whines about it on the internet to show everyone what a fucking dumbass she is? If we're going to call any and all instances of conflict bullying, then the term loses its meaning. It's gotten to the point where, when I hear the word bullying, I just fucking roll my eyes. And it shouldn't be like that, because words mean things and they should be used properly.

Instead of telling her son that he's a helpless victim surrounded be meanies and BY GOSH IT'S NEVER OKAY FOR THOSE MEANIES TO HURT HIS FEELINGS, how about actually teaching him something practical about how the world really works? Preferably not while on the toilet. Tell him, "I'm sorry Tommy hurt your feelings. And if he was really mean to you, then he should apologize. But you have to understand, sweetheart, that painting your nails isn't something that boys usually do. It's harmless, and it's fun. You can do it at home and it's totally okay. If you want to go to school like that, that's okay too. It's okay, but you need to understand that other kids may not like it. They may say things. They may say things that hurt your feelings. So if you want to go to school like this, you can. But you need to be prepared for how other people are going to react. Not everyone loves you unconditionally like I do, and not everyone is going to be cool with this. So you have a choice to make. You have to decide whether this is worth the trouble. I'll support whatever decision you make. Just understand that, depending upon which decision you make, you may end up taking some shit for it."
Basically, teach your kid that what he does, how he acts, how he presents himself, is part of the equation. That actions have consequences, and the choices he makes will influence how other people react to him and treat him.

[rachelbean]

Tatt, I totally agree with this part of your post:

Instead of telling her son that he's a helpless victim surrounded be meanies and BY GOSH IT'S NEVER OKAY FOR THOSE MEANIES TO HURT HIS FEELINGS, how about actually teaching him something practical about how the world really works? Preferably not while on the toilet. Tell him, "I'm sorry Tommy hurt your feelings. And if he was really mean to you, then he should apologize. But you have to understand, sweetheart, that painting your nails isn't something that boys usually do. It's harmless, and it's fun. You can do it at home and it's totally okay. If you want to go to school like that, that's okay too. It's okay, but you need to understand that other kids may not like it. They may say things. They may say things that hurt your feelings. So if you want to go to school like this, you can. But you need to be prepared for how other people are going to react. Not everyone loves you unconditionally like I do, and not everyone is going to be cool with this. So you have a choice to make. You have to decide whether this is worth the trouble. I'll support whatever decision you make. Just understand that, depending upon which decision you make, you may end up taking some shit for it."

And to some degree agree with the idea that making an unpleasant comment does not equal bullying, but since we don't know how it was said or the full extent we don't know if it was bullying or not. I agree with this:

words mean things and they should be used properly.

Including the word gay. It's not any more gay to paint your nails if you are a boy than it is to wear jeans if you're a girl. It might be considered "girly" or feminine, but really there is nothing about painting nails that points to homosexuality. In any case if your reaction to someone painting their nails is "Holy shit, dude, that's pretty fucking gay. What the hell is wrong with you?" you really really need to get out more. I've known straight dudes who've painted their nails all my life (some cause they were goth or punk, some just eccentric artists, some who liked manicures) and none of them had anything particularly wrong with them. It's definitely not the norm but on the list of weird stuff it's just slightly wackier than dying your hair

[tattuchu]

I don't mean gay as in homosexual. I mean gay as in gay And I can totally use the word this way and it's not hypocritical at all because I'm half gay myself so it's totally cool

[tattuchu]

By the way, MiM, thanks for that video. I have a bunch of things to do today so I can't watch it just now but I definitely will at some point.