Is this racist?

[Drewish]

This thread is somewhat inspired by the thread about an anti-black rally in Israel.

So first a quick confession. I have no problem with Asian people, but the moment I hear one of them mention "Asian pride" I instantly think less of them. I have no issue with Italians, but when one of them wears a shirt with an Italian flag on it or talks about their Italian heritage I view them as racial trash. I have similar views regarding pretty much any racial group or ethnic identity. The more they insist on identifying themselves through racial identity, the more I feel they should be mocked and treated with open bigotry and hostility for it. To this day when somebody makes a point to identify them self as Jewish I think, "Oh great, another one of God's chosen people with a persecution complex." It's not that I stereotype all jews. It's that I stereotype people who make a point to let me know that they're Jewish. For some reason I don't see that as racist. I'm not judging you based on your race. I'm judging you based on your clear desire to conform to that racial identity. Thoughts?

[hadespussercats]

Well, "Italian" isn't a race, for starters. Wearing an Italian flag is inspired by the same feelings that might lead someone to wear an American flag (many people have issues with that, to be sure-- but the issues involve jingoism and the like, not race.)

I don't see why you'd think it's not racist to think people should be "mocked and treated with open bigotry and hostility" for having pride in their racial identity.

You say that if someone makes a point of identifying themselves as Jewish, you immediately assume they have a persecution complex. Being Jewish ought to be a don't ask, don't tell sort of situation to pass muster with you? You have instant, negative, stereotyped thoughts about Jews who take pride in their heritage?

Yes, that's racist. Even if you're only racist towards a certain "type" you're identified within the larger racial group.

[FBM]

I don't think it's racist, either. I also dislike people who are proud of stupid things that they're not responsible for in the first place, like race and nationality. If they want a reason to be proud, they should do something worth being proud of. And then they should keep their mouths shut about it anyway. Maybe I'm showing my age, but I grew up thinking that it's better to let others praise you instead of bragging about yourself.

[FBM]

To dislike a certain type of person based on their behavior isn't, by definition, racism...

[Drewish]

Are you from the east coast? I'm asking because I'm not sure if the Italian racial identity thing is as apparent in the mid-west or west coast?

Edit because of cross post:

Glad somebody else agrees, though I see the point about it being a racially based assumption (after all the assumptions I make about an afro-centric black person and an "Asian pride" loving Korean are very different). That I think less of both for their identity being so largely racial isn't racist. That I then assume different things about them may indicate racial stereotyping on my part. Then again, when I meet a non-black who is sympathetic to afro-centrism, or a white anime geeks who think that everything Asian is automatically superior I think of them the way blacks must feel about "Uncle Toms." I'm not trying to make a case for myself being racist or not. To be frank I think the term has pretty much lost its meaning. I just want to share my feelings on these issues honestly.

[laklak]

I find it much easier to just hate everyone who isn't exactly like me. Saves a lot of thought.

[FBM]

Me? I'm from MS, originally. It would be hard to find a more racist place than where I grew up. It never made sense to me, though. When I was in maybe 1st grade, I once asked my grandmother why white people didn't like black people. She said, "Because they're neeeegers!!!' and did an old-woman cackle at me. I figured there was something she didn't want to tell me, since I could tell that wasn't a real answer, so I just thought, 'OK, I'll find out one day.'

Then when I was in junior high, they integrated our school. There were shootings and hangings and whatnot. I thought it was the stupidest shit I'd ever heard of. I was naive and idealistic, so I started wearing one of those plastic 'Black Power' fists on a necklace in silent protest. Then one day the biggest student in the whole school, Clyde, a black guy, cornered me in the bathroom. I doubt I'll ever forget his words because I was scared shitless. Big fucker, that Clyde. He said, "Ah thank ah know why you wearin' dat, but they a lot o' people out dere that might not unnerstan'. Ah thank you oughta take that off.'

I took it off.

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that racial stereotypes exist for a reason. Yes, it's sloppy reasoning and racist to apply those stereotypes to particular individuals, but the stereotypes don't usually arise out of nothing. If it gets to a point that you dislike someone based solely on their race instead of their behavior, yes, that's racism.

[hadespussercats]

Me? I'm from MS, originally. It would be hard to find a more racist place than where I grew up. It never made sense to me, though. When I was in maybe 1st grade, I once asked my grandmother why white people didn't like black people. She said, "Because they're neeeegers!!!' and did an old-woman cackle at me. I figured there was something she didn't want to tell me, since I could tell that wasn't a real answer, so I just thought, 'OK, I'll find out one day.'

Then when I was in junior high, they integrated our school. There were shootings and hangings and whatnot. I thought it was the stupidest shit I'd ever heard of. I was naive and idealistic, so I started wearing one of those plastic 'Black Power' fists on a necklace in silent protest. Then one day the biggest student in the whole school, Clyde, a black guy, cornered me in the bathroom. I doubt I'll ever forget his words because I was scared shitless. Big fucker, that Clyde. He said, "Ah thank ah know why you wearin' dat, but they a lot o' people out dere that might not unnerstan'. Ah thank you oughta take that off.'

I took it off.

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that racial stereotypes exist for a reason. Yes, it's sloppy reasoning and racist to apply those stereotypes to particular individuals, but the stereotypes don't usually arise out of nothing. If it gets to a point that you dislike someone based solely on their race instead of their behavior, yes, that's racism.

But in the OP, Andrew is discussing interactions with people of different races (and nationalities-- like Italians. Even in NYC it's national, not racial, pride, that brings out the masses on Columbus Day. /derail )that he's just met. These people reveal their racial pride, whether though a T-shirt, or a necklace, maybe, or a comment, and he makes many negative assumptions about them that he says he thinks they deserve.

The only behavior he's had the opportunity to observe and judge in this scenario is the behavior of taking pride in their race.

It's one thing to have difficulties with jingoism, or nationalism, or Zionism, or racism on the part of non-whites or non-Semites. It's another to assume that anyone who takes pride in their heritage deserves to be smeared with an ugly brush of stereotypes.

I'll note that I do sometimes make those assumptions myself. But I'm being a racist when I do.

[Warren Dew]

This thread is somewhat inspired by the thread about an anti-black rally in Israel.

So first a quick confession. I have no problem with Asian people, but the moment I hear one of them mention "Asian pride" I instantly think less of them. I have no issue with Italians, but when one of them wears a shirt with an Italian flag on it or talks about their Italian heritage I view them as racial trash. I have similar views regarding pretty much any racial group or ethnic identity. The more they insist on identifying themselves through racial identity, the more I feel they should be mocked and treated with open bigotry and hostility for it. To this day when somebody makes a point to identify them self as Jewish I think, "Oh great, another one of God's chosen people with a persecution complex." It's not that I stereotype all jews. It's that I stereotype people who make a point to let me know that they're Jewish. For some reason I don't see that as racist. I'm not judging you based on your race. I'm judging you based on your clear desire to conform to that racial identity. Thoughts?

My thoughts:

1. I think if you were really confident about your position not being racist, you would have mentioned blacks in your rant paragraph along with asians and jews and italians.

2. I don't have a problem with anyone taking pride in whatever heritage they have, whether racial or otherwise. I do, however, have a problem when they start thinking they deserve special treatment from other people because of that heritage, or when the start treating others worse because of lack of that heritage.

Edit: 3. I do think that anyone who thinks it's okay to display racial pride should not make an exception for white pride.

[rachelbean]

Yes.

[Rum]

Its not racist at all by virtue of the actual definition of racism which dictionary.com states as:

1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

You simply don't like people making a point of their racial origins as if that makes them special in some way. I would tend to agree with you.

[hadespussercats]

This thread is somewhat inspired by the thread about an anti-black rally in Israel.

So first a quick confession. I have no problem with Asian people, but the moment I hear one of them mention "Asian pride" I instantly think less of them. I have no issue with Italians, but when one of them wears a shirt with an Italian flag on it or talks about their Italian heritage I view them as racial trash. I have similar views regarding pretty much any racial group or ethnic identity. The more they insist on identifying themselves through racial identity, the more I feel they should be mocked and treated with open bigotry and hostility for it. To this day when somebody makes a point to identify them self as Jewish I think, "Oh great, another one of God's chosen people with a persecution complex." It's not that I stereotype all jews. It's that I stereotype people who make a point to let me know that they're Jewish. For some reason I don't see that as racist. I'm not judging you based on your race. I'm judging you based on your clear desire to conform to that racial identity. Thoughts?

My thoughts:

1. I think if you were really confident about your position not being racist, you would have mentioned blacks in your rant paragraph along with asians and jews and italians.

2. I don't have a problem with anyone taking pride in whatever heritage they have, whether racial or otherwise. I do, however, have a problem when they start thinking they deserve special treatment from other people because of that heritage, or when the start treating others worse because of lack of that heritage.

Edit: 3. I do think that anyone who thinks it's okay to display racial pride should not make an exception for white pride.

On the subject of white pride-- I think Columbus Day and St. Patrick's Day are celebrations of white pride. At least in New York, that's what they seem like...

(Examples to illustrate that white pride need not involve the Klan.)

[Atheist-Lite]

I'm English. I'm not a member of the English Defence League but I'm proud of the positive contributions the English have made to the world. Naturally I don't like to dwell too much on the bad things like dresden, 'merica and the invention of gravity.

[hadespussercats]

This thread is somewhat inspired by the thread about an anti-black rally in Israel.

So first a quick confession. I have no problem with Asian people, but the moment I hear one of them mention "Asian pride" I instantly think less of them. I have no issue with Italians, but when one of them wears a shirt with an Italian flag on it or talks about their Italian heritage I view them as racial trash. I have similar views regarding pretty much any racial group or ethnic identity. The more they insist on identifying themselves through racial identity, the more I feel they should be mocked and treated with open bigotry and hostility for it. To this day when somebody makes a point to identify them self as Jewish I think, "Oh great, another one of God's chosen people with a persecution complex." It's not that I stereotype all jews. It's that I stereotype people who make a point to let me know that they're Jewish. For some reason I don't see that as racist. I'm not judging you based on your race. I'm judging you based on your clear desire to conform to that racial identity. Thoughts?

My thoughts:

1. I think if you were really confident about your position not being racist, you would have mentioned blacks in your rant paragraph along with asians and jews and italians.

2. I don't have a problem with anyone taking pride in whatever heritage they have, whether racial or otherwise. I do, however, have a problem when they start thinking they deserve special treatment from other people because of that heritage, or when the start treating others worse because of lack of that heritage.

Edit: 3. I do think that anyone who thinks it's okay to display racial pride should not make an exception for white pride.

On the subject of white pride-- I think Columbus Day and St. Patrick's Day are celebrations of white pride. At least in New York, that's what they seem like...

(Examples to illustrate that white pride need not involve the Klan.)

And now I'm realizing I should clarify in light of my earlier comments about "Italian" being a national, not a racial, identifier.

Andrewclunn and Sophia Loren are the same race. Sophia Loren, while visiting the US, may feel like she has more cause to celebrate on Columbus Day than Andrewclunn does, because of her Italian heritage.

Generally speaking, American culture is comfortable with celebrating the heritage of white people via nationalism, or some other kind of shared geographical/cultural route (like, say, an Appalachian music festival), and not simply through shared skin color.

Of course, now that I've written than and I'm looking at it, I'm thinking that might be true kind of across the board...

[hadespussercats]

Its not racist at all by virtue of the actual definition of racism which dictionary.com states as:

1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

You simply don't like people making a point of their racial origins as if that makes them special in some way. I would tend to agree with you.

How is this:

The more they insist on identifying themselves through racial identity, the more I feel they should be mocked and treated with open bigotry and hostility for it.

not intolerance?