Derail: PZ Myers on Decent Humans and Getting Laid

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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by charlou » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:03 am

Ronja wrote:
charlou wrote:What do you make of his comment in the second paragraph I quoted?
The way I read it, he's assuming clinically sane, generally sensible and maybe also neuronormal people, without specifying that explicitly. He's not mentioning people with emotional problems, sociopolitical agendas or people on the Autism spectrum, which can be seen as a mistake or not. I noticed that he did not address any of those, but it did not disturb me. One blog post does not need to address every aspect of its topic, IMO.
That's quite a raft of assumptions about human behaviour and what people ought to find acceptable.

I asked you something in my next post ... interested in your response ...
Charlou wrote:Ronja, do you agree that elevator guy's invitation to coffee, as worded in the way Rebecca Watson claimed it was worded, is an example of misogynistic exploitation and parasitism?
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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by Ronja » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:38 am

charlou wrote: I asked you something in my next post ... interested in your response ...
Charlou wrote:Ronja, do you agree that elevator guy's invitation to coffee, as worded in the way Rebecca Watson claimed it was worded, is an example of misogynistic exploitation and parasitism?
I'll answer that, but it will take some time (I'm washing the dishes now and then the mail needs to be get, which out here in the archipelago is a 5 km walk). Also, I think I'll post my answer in that other thread ("Dawkins ... Feminists"), as it maybe is more appropriate. http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29115
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by charlou » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:41 am

Ronja wrote:
charlou wrote: I asked you something in my next post ... interested in your response ...
Charlou wrote:Ronja, do you agree that elevator guy's invitation to coffee, as worded in the way Rebecca Watson claimed it was worded, is an example of misogynistic exploitation and parasitism?
I'll answer that, but it will take some time (I'm washing the dishes now and then the mail needs to be get, which out here in the archipelago is a 5 km walk). Also, I think I'll post my answer in that other thread ("Dawkins ... Feminists"), as it maybe is more appropriate. http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29115
I agree it's more appropriate there ... perhaps this whole conversation about this blog post of PZ's could be moved there, as it's all about his blog response to that topic, and not about science?
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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by Cormac » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:52 am

charlou wrote:Fast forward to his last paragraph in that post:
Of course, if any more experienced commenters would like to offer further suggestions, they're welcome to continue…as long as they remember these are guidelines for Decent Human Beings, not misogynistic exploiters and parasites.
Oh, we're welcome to continue ... as long as we continue within the framework PZ designates, which PZ makes clear in paragraph two I quoted above. Someone cries misogyny and thus it is so.

Ronja, do you agree that elevator guy's invitation to coffee, as worded in the way Rebecca Watson claimed it was worded, is an example of misogynistic exploitation and parasitism?
... another way to put this is - feel free to disagree - even if you haven't stopped beating your wife...
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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by mistermack » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:26 am

I really don't understand PZ Myers's blog on getting laid.
What's wrong with offending people? That's their problem.
And when did being honest and sensitive become the best method?

I would recommend lots of bullshit, flowers, chocolates, and rohypnol.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by Atheist-Lite » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:09 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:He added me to his Google+. :dance:

Oh, and if anybody wants me to rely a personal messages I'll be seeing him on Nov. 19th. :tup:
I'm afraid the ladies are perhaps thinking Saruman and Grimoir with Dawkins and Myers right now, sir? Come Nov? :read:
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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by charlou » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:41 pm

Cormac wrote:
charlou wrote:Fast forward to his last paragraph in that post:
Of course, if any more experienced commenters would like to offer further suggestions, they're welcome to continue…as long as they remember these are guidelines for Decent Human Beings, not misogynistic exploiters and parasites.
Oh, we're welcome to continue ... as long as we continue within the framework PZ designates, which PZ makes clear in paragraph two I quoted above. Someone cries misogyny and thus it is so.

Ronja, do you agree that elevator guy's invitation to coffee, as worded in the way Rebecca Watson claimed it was worded, is an example of misogynistic exploitation and parasitism?
... another way to put this is - feel free to disagree - even if you haven't stopped beating your wife...
:mrgreen: Fair call ... I do tend to need a reminder from time to time about framing questions this way, so thank you.

Ronja, my apologies. :flowers: Of course you're not obliged to respond at all, let alone frame a response in any way that seems prescribed by the way I put the question to you.

I was going to rephrase the whole thing, but it's late and I'm in favour of taking a break from this topic that has held my interest for the past couple of weeks, and kick back with a beer. :cheers:
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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by Cormac » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:43 pm

charlou wrote:
Cormac wrote:
charlou wrote:Fast forward to his last paragraph in that post:
Of course, if any more experienced commenters would like to offer further suggestions, they're welcome to continue…as long as they remember these are guidelines for Decent Human Beings, not misogynistic exploiters and parasites.
Oh, we're welcome to continue ... as long as we continue within the framework PZ designates, which PZ makes clear in paragraph two I quoted above. Someone cries misogyny and thus it is so.

Ronja, do you agree that elevator guy's invitation to coffee, as worded in the way Rebecca Watson claimed it was worded, is an example of misogynistic exploitation and parasitism?
... another way to put this is - feel free to disagree - even if you haven't stopped beating your wife...
:mrgreen: Fair call ... I do tend to need a reminder from time to time about framing questions this way, so thank you.

Ronja, my apologies. :flowers: Of course you're not obliged to respond at all, let alone frame a response in any way that seems prescribed by the way I put the question to you.

I was going to rephrase the whole thing, but it's late and I'm in favour of taking a break from this topic that has held my interest for the past couple of weeks, and kick back with a beer. :cheers:
Charlou! I wasn't referring to your post, but PeeZeds!
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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by charlou » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:50 pm

Cormac wrote:Charlou! I wasn't referring to your post, but PeeZeds!
Oh.


:lol:


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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by Ronja » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:10 pm

OK, regarding this thread: would moving the more Dawkins/Watson specific posts to that thread and moving the rest of this thread into General Serious Discussion & Philosophy do the trick?
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by Ronja » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:29 pm

Ronja wrote:OK, regarding this thread: would moving the more Dawkins/Watson specific posts to that thread and moving the rest of this thread into General Serious Discussion & Philosophy do the trick?
As nobody has screamed bloody murder over this suggestion, I'm locking the thread to cut out the Dawkins/Watson part into a thread of it's own (seeing as the other thread has moved on quite a bit) and then I'm moving the rest both threads into General...

This will take a moment. done
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

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Re: Derail: PZ Myers on Decent Humans and Getting Laid

Post by charlou » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:38 am

And your response to my question ... ? Image
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Re: The Best of PZ Myers on Pharyngula

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:42 pm

charlou wrote:
Ronja wrote:
charlou wrote:What do you make of his comment in the second paragraph I quoted?
The way I read it, he's assuming clinically sane, generally sensible and maybe also neuronormal people, without specifying that explicitly. He's not mentioning people with emotional problems, sociopolitical agendas or people on the Autism spectrum, which can be seen as a mistake or not. I noticed that he did not address any of those, but it did not disturb me. One blog post does not need to address every aspect of its topic, IMO.
That's quite a raft of assumptions about human behaviour and what people ought to find acceptable.

I asked you something in my next post ... interested in your response ...
Charlou wrote:Ronja, do you agree that elevator guy's invitation to coffee, as worded in the way Rebecca Watson claimed it was worded, is an example of misogynistic exploitation and parasitism?
Did you get a responsive answer?

Regarding the blog itself:

I think that PZ's advice may be helpful, for sure, but I think he missed the point of the whole dispute. The question never was "whether or not what Elevator Guy did was conducive to or effective at getting laid at atheist conventions."

From the standpoint of a person trying to get laid at any conference, if someone still hasn't landed a sex partner by 4am, and is headed down that lonely walk to a hotel room to take matters into his own hands, he may see a chance encounter in an elevator from a probability/outcome point of view. He is there in the elevator and there is a woman there who has been in the bar for about 6 straight hours. She seems nice. Elevator Guy has two options - take a shot, or don't take a shot. If he doesn't take a shot, his night is over and he goes to the room. If he takes a shot and she says no (most likely outcome), then his position has not changed. If he takes a shot and she says "yes" well he has hit the jackpot. So, even a 1% chance is worth taking at that point. Highly reasonable.

PZ's article is written as if we know that Elevator Guy is angry she said no. However, from Watson's story, Elevator Guy was gracious, and accepted no for an answer and moved on his merry way.

PZ writes
The first thing you must know is that you haven't failed when the object of your desire says "no". That's a perfectly reasonable response, and even if you do everything exactly right, you're going to hear "no" more often than you do "yes". Accepting a refusal graciously is an important part of being a Decent Human Being.
Nobody said that Elevator Guy "failed" - well, at least Elevator Guy has not said he feels that way, that we know of. No was a perfectly reasonable response, and Elevator Guy accepted it graciously. That, apparently, so far in PZ's presentation makes Elevator Guy a "Decent Human Being."

PZ then writes
You have failed if the person you're interested in calls your behavior creepy. That's where you need to step back and re-evaluate: you did something wrong. Decent Human Beings do not blame the other person, they recognize that they screwed up, accept their responsibility, and decide not to ever do that again.
I think that statement is true in a way - sure, if the object of your affections thinks you are a creep, well, then you have failed to win her over, certainly. However, is it fair to state that you have done something "wrong" merely because one person thinks you're creepy? I don't think that is reasonable to say at all. Watson said no to the coffee, but some women - I assure you - will say yes. Is asking a woman for coffee in an elevator ALWAYS creepy. No, of course not. It depends. And according to PZ it depends exclusively on the reaction of the female. If she likes it - it's a good move. If she doesn't - you're a creep, and then you have to change.

Anyway - I read this part a couple of times:
I don't deny that those tactics works for unscrupulous people — but you will have forfeited the title of Decent Human Being, and we'd rather you didn't come to our meetings. Also, atheist women tend to be assertive and not at all bashful about telling everyone else about your behavior, and you'll find yourself discussed on youtube and on blogs and perhaps even from the podium at the meeting. Then you'll feel compelled to comment anonymously on those blogs, complaining about ball-busting man-haters, and you'll be forever receding from that desirable status as Decent Human Being.
Does that sound just a little bit like PZ knows who Elevator Guy is? Read that closely, bearing in mind that he wraps it up with "then you'll feel compelled to comment anonymously on those blogs, complaining about ball-busting man-haters, and you'll be forever receding from that desirable status as Decent Human Being." Right before that, he is referring to one specific man - the man who was called out by assertive atheist woman not afraid to discuss the man on youtube, etc., then this same guy is commenting anonymously on blogs....how does PZ know that Elevator Guy was posting on blogs about this? When you read that, do you not get a sneaking suspicion that PZ is telling a guy whose identity he knows to cool it, or don't show up at the meetings?
You don't get to whine about being called out.
Who has whined about being called out? The only one that I know that has complained at all about being called out was Stef McGraw. We haven't heard from Elevator Guy, and the rest of us uninvolved males could be whining about being called out, because we weren't called out. Does PZ know that Elevator Guy has whined?
If all you've been doing is general banter with a group, well then, there hasn't been any really personal interaction so far, so expecting more is a bit presumptuous.
Does PZ know that all Elevator Guy was doing was general banter? Hmmm.... Well, so PZ thinks that what Elevator Guy did was "presumptuous." Maybe so. I might go that far in describing the impertinent implication in Elevator Guy's question.
Decent Human Beings always give potential partners opportunity to gracefully decline, and best of all, put them in positions of equal status so they aren't afraid to decline. If they look startled or their eyes dart around looking for an avenue of escape, you screwed up. Apologize and back off immediately.
Well, Elevator Guy meets this test. Skepchick gracefully declined, and Elevator Guy accepted no for an answer without further comment. No guilt trips. No anger. Nothing. There is no assertion by Watson that she looked startled or that her eyes darted around looking for an avenue of escape. And, there is no assertion that he did not back off immediately. There is no assertion that Elevator Gate apologized, but then again there is no assertion that Watson gave E.G. any reason to think he needed to apologize at the time. She said no - he said o.k. - he left. What's to apologize for? Had she said - "are you kidding me? What kind of question is that? That is very bothersome!" - then E.G. might well have apologized. Maybe not. All we do know is that Skepchick only politely declined and that's it.
I did not find it at all creepy — it was extremely flattering, as you might guess — because in every case these were offers from intelligent people in reasonable contexts, that is, Decent Human Beings.
It seems to me that here PZ is saying that the people were decent human beings even though they did exactly what elevator guy did.
. I'm pretty much the wrong person to ask for advice on what to do on one-night stands, except that as someone aspiring to be a Decent Human Being, "no" will always mean "no", and maybe it should always be a good idea to keep on communicating as equals during the engagement.
Another win for Elevator Guy - he took the first no for an answer, and moved on.
Also, everything that follows should be personal and private, so if you're checking a blog post on the internet to see what to do next, you're probably also doing it wrong.
Everything? Including the proposition in the first place?
Of course, if any more experienced commenters would like to offer further suggestions, they're welcome to continue…as long as they remember these are guidelines for Decent Human Beings, not misogynistic exploiters and parasites.
PZ would have to define that. I am not sure what the definition is in his mind. He seems to think that E.G. is one of these misogynistic exploiters and parasites. However, E.G. met all of PZ's tests. There is no indication that E.G. didn't learn from his actions. All we know is that he asked coffee question, and accepted no for an answer. As far as we know, E.G. did not know he was being creepy until Watson said she felt uncomfortable because of it.

PZ's advice indicates that Decent Human Beings can certainly sometimes make women think of them as creeps. If they do, however, a Decent Human Being backs off and reevaluates and asks himself what he did wrong. Then he changes his behavior accordingly. How do we know E.G. hasn't done that? We do know that E.G. met PZ's other piece of advice and that is to take no for an answer graciously.

As far as PZ's advice to be clean and well-dressed - well, we have no idea if E.G. was unkempt or smelly or unhygienic - unless PZ knows more about E.G. than Watson told us.

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Re: Derail: PZ Myers on Decent Humans and Getting Laid

Post by Audley Strange » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:11 am

Perhaps if the moderate branch of the women's movement encouraged the more radical and Misandrist feminists to wear some kind of badge or symbol to make them identifiable (I'm thinking a T-Shirt or Badge that just says MEN NO! or something) then everyone would know to avoid them and their passive aggressive drivel which would stop a lot of these incidents happen in the first place.

It would also benefit the Misandrists because the only men who would approach them would be dimwits and assholes, giving them further evidence of being oppressed by the White European Patriarchal Rape Machine.
"What started as a legitimate effort by the townspeople of Salem to identify, capture and kill those who did Satan's bidding quickly deteriorated into a witch hunt" Army Man

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Re: Derail: PZ Myers on Decent Humans and Getting Laid

Post by charlou » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:52 am

Audley Strange wrote:Perhaps if the moderate branch of the women's movement encouraged the more radical and Misandrist feminists to wear some kind of badge or symbol to make them identifiable (I'm thinking a T-Shirt or Badge that just says MEN NO! or something) then everyone would know to avoid them and their passive aggressive drivel which would stop a lot of these incidents happen in the first place.

It would also benefit the Misandrists because the only men who would approach them would be dimwits and assholes, giving them further evidence of being oppressed by the White European Patriarchal Rape Machine.
hehe yeah.


coito, pretty much agree with your points ... except that I didn't get an impression PZ was speaking directly of or to elevator guy, but lecturing men in general.
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