What value is in liberal arts education?

[FBM]

I think it has made my life more interesting, but majoring in a liberal art (Philosophy) has certainly limited my employability. I ran across the idea that many universities are considering downsizing or even eliminating their liberal arts courses and majors in favor of things like business, law, science and technology programs because of the relative unemployability of liberal arts grads. Would we be better or at least just as well off if we just learned about literature, arts, philosophy, history, etc, informally? In our spare time?

The liberal arts education, if the student actually does the work and learns the material, is awesome. It's very nice in life to have a strong background in history, philosophy, the arts, literature,logic, the classics, music and such. It forms a foundation upon which to base all other learning.

HOWEVER -- the problem with modern liberal arts degrees is that they are dumbed down and bullshit, easy to pass without actually mastering the material. If I thought a liberal arts graduate actually mastered a significant amount of material, I'd be impressed.

Also, the purpose of a liberal arts degree is not to prepare oneself for employment of some fashion. That should be obvious. Having a good foundation in Greek and Roman classics doesn't make you able to sell, or design, or build, or manage, or account or whatever. Those are different skills. The thing is, neither do so-called business degrees like marketing and "business management" and such. Those degrees are even more bullshit than liberal arts degrees.

What a person needs to do, and which few 18 to 21 year old can grasp, is take the bull by the horns in a project oriented fashion and figure out what they can do in life that they enjoy and which makes sufficient money for them, and then do what needs to be done to excel at that. Simply floating along through college taking "journalism" or "communications" or whatever fluffy major doesn't give you the needed skills for anything. They graduate and are mystified by the fact that folks aren't beating down the door to hire them for $75,000 a year salaries. The thing is, if they tried to think of it objectively, they would realize that they wouldn't hire themselves for most of the jobs they're looking for if they were paying the salary. That's because they haven't gotten any proven experience accomplishing anything besides drinking and partying in college and getting average grades in relatively easy curricula.

That's why it's important to have skill -- the best ones to get in college are advanced degrees like law, medicine and such. At an undergrad level, accounting, engineering, architecture, information technology, etc. are all good ones, because they allow employers to have a reasonably good expectation of what the graduate can do coming out of school. But it is possible to do both.

Teaching.

[FBM]

I think it's funny that people who enjoy a good novel or a good movie belittle people who study liberal arts. And people who know how to write grammatically correct sentences with proper punctuation? Don't forget them, even though their numbers are dwindling.

I do agree with CES on one point, though. The question is biased as phrased. If I had a do-over, I'd say, "Is there value in..."

[macdoc]

Them who can't teach...

[Coito ergo sum]

the best ones to get in college are advanced degrees like law, medicine and such. At an undergrad level, accounting, engineering, architecture, information technology,

only if your goal is money making early on instead of actually being educated. That you consider law as an advanced degree on a par with medicine yet relegate engineering and architecture to a lower hierarchy is telling.

Well, duh -- I prefaced that bit that you snipped with the note that I was referring to preparation for employment.

Law is just training of predators to abuse the system.

Engineers architects etc are actual wealth creators.

If education is your goal in university as mine was, liberal arts is a good base as it enhances your communication skills and rounds out the limited scope of science and engineering.

Did you not read what I wrote? I said exactly that, assuming the curriculum is demanding and the student does the work.

[Coito ergo sum]

ANYway, what is the value in liberal arts education in general, and how would we be different without it?

At least phrase the question without so much political bias. What about a Conservative Arts Degree?

First semester:

Creationism
Sexual Repression
Judgmentalism
Evolution Denial
A Survey of Global Warming Propaganda.

You have interpreted "liberal arts education" in a way I have not hitherto encountered.

Wtf is he on about, anyway?

I was joking? Wasn't that clear with the reference to the nonexistent "Conservative Arts Degree" and listing several fictitious courses that might be in such a degree program, were one to actually exist.

It's a play on words -- "Liberal Arts" -- that doesn't mean Liberal as in politically Liberal. But, the double meaning allows for one to do a switcheroo and demand equal time for "Conservative Arts" degrees.

Ha ha.

[FBM]

Oh.

[hadespussercats]

Probably almost as much of a struggle as living without mezzo-soprano costume designer craftspeople, who write creative nonfiction.

None of my skills are useful. None.

They are to you.

En Route!!!!

And yes, you're right. Not so much to the pocketbook, but ah well.

They can be lucrative. Just gotta come up with something someone will buy and then convince them to buy it. You have a useful skill, you've just not harnessed it yet. You can do it. If it is what you want, you can envision where you want to be and do the things that need to be done to get there. You have the power. You have the talent. I guarantee it.

When's your next motivational speaking tour?

[Coito ergo sum]

I think it's funny that people who enjoy a good novel or a good movie belittle people who study liberal arts. And people who know how to write grammatically correct sentences with proper punctuation? Don't forget them, even though their numbers are dwindling.

I do agree with CES on one point, though. The question is biased as phrased. If I had a do-over, I'd say, "Is there value in..."

What do you mean on one point? Do you think I was bashing those who study liberal arts?

I don't bash those who study liberal arts. I was pretty clear that I think the courses and fields within liberal arts degrees are great. They aren't preparing people to have marketable skills in the business world, but that isn't the only reason to get an education. I think it's critical for humans to have a good education in the liberal arts fields, but mainly to have a basic foundation of knowledge and the ability to communicate on a higher level than in depth discussions about Katy Perry's dating habits.

[hadespussercats]

Them who can't teach...

...teach gym.

[Coito ergo sum]

Probably almost as much of a struggle as living without mezzo-soprano costume designer craftspeople, who write creative nonfiction.

None of my skills are useful. None.

They are to you.

En Route!!!!

And yes, you're right. Not so much to the pocketbook, but ah well.

They can be lucrative. Just gotta come up with something someone will buy and then convince them to buy it. You have a useful skill, you've just not harnessed it yet. You can do it. If it is what you want, you can envision where you want to be and do the things that need to be done to get there. You have the power. You have the talent. I guarantee it.

When's your next motivational speaking tour?

...in a van down by the river?




But seriously, Hades. You can do it. You just have to keep moving. Don't worry about the small stuff. Envision a goal, and try to get there. I and I'm sure all the other Ratz want to buy your stuff, and see others buy it too. Just win, baby!



This ain't a song for the brokenhearted
No silent prayer for the faith departed
And I ain't gonna be just a face in the crowd
You're gonna hear my voice when I shout it out loud

* * *

This is for the ones who stood their ground
For Tommy and Gina who never backed down
Tomorrow's getting harder, make no mistake
Luck ain't even lucky, gotta make your own breaks

* * *

You better stand tall
When they're calling you out
Don't bend, don't break
Baby, don't back down


Lyrics from <a href="http://www.elyrics.net">eLyrics.net</a>

[FBM]

I think it's funny that people who enjoy a good novel or a good movie belittle people who study liberal arts. And people who know how to write grammatically correct sentences with proper punctuation? Don't forget them, even though their numbers are dwindling.

I do agree with CES on one point, though. The question is biased as phrased. If I had a do-over, I'd say, "Is there value in..."

What do you mean on one point? Do you think I was bashing those who study liberal arts?

I don't bash those who study liberal arts. I was pretty clear that I think the courses and fields within liberal arts degrees are great. They aren't preparing people to have marketable skills in the business world, but that isn't the only reason to get an education. I think it's critical for humans to have a good education in the liberal arts fields, but mainly to have a basic foundation of knowledge and the ability to communicate on a higher level than in depth discussions about Katy Perry's dating habits.

My bad. That stemmed from my failure to get your earlier joke.

[hadespussercats]

Wait, where's my lighter?

[Coito ergo sum]

Wait, where's my lighter?

LOL!



Remember - an idea is just a dream until you write it down. Then it's a goal.

[macdoc]

They aren't preparing people to have marketable skills in the business world,

but nevertheless their skills ARE marketable even if it's not a career specific goal.

[Coito ergo sum]

They aren't preparing people to have marketable skills in the business world,

but nevertheless their skills ARE marketable even if it's not a career specific goal.

You folks are missing it and trying to start an argument where there isn't one.

Liberal arts degrees are great, but they aren't what businesses are generally looking for. However, that does not mean that having a deep education in literature, arts, philosophy and other liberal arts is valueless. It's good to be smart. It helps to be educated, erudite and to be able to discuss things intellectually. It can also train the mind for advanced degrees. There are many ways it is valuable, but it does not teach one marketing, sales, customer service, design, development, engineering, accounting, electrician skills, construction, management or other such marketable skills. The benefits of a liberal arts degree are not as measurable or concrete. Engineering, law, accounting, medicine, nursing, etc. - those are "marketable skills" -- being a history major is generally not (other than for teaching more history majors, or perhaps becoming a writer about history). I'm not bashing liberal arts -- I'm merely drawing a distinction. I'm not saying it's better to be an engineer or a lawyer. Whether it's better or worse depends on a person's life goals, interests and what makes a person happy.

In addition, the dumbing down of higher education these days has turned things like English majors, journalism, communications, political science and such into "joke" majors that almost anyone can pass with a modicum of effort and without learning much of anything. That's the part that bothers me about it all. To take philosophy or English or the like should be highly demanding.