Problematic Stuff

[Tero]

Aw, I wanted shields and helmets. For SJW. Silver plastic, designed like bike helmets.

[L'Emmerdeur]

The connection between the psychotic loner and the alt-right movement is explained by the article. You may disagree with their justification for identifying him as aligned with the alt-right, but rather than expounding on that disagreement you present an inaccurate criticism. The SPLC does not claim that he was motivated by Spencer and the alt-right.

They don't claim that he was motivated by the Alt Right?

The title of the list is "The Alt Right is Killing People."

The first paragraph of the article says the SPLC has counted up the victims "killed or injured by alleged perpetrators influenced by the so-called 'alt-right...'" In the meat of the article, it discusses Rodger, and on the list of "alt-right killers" it includes Rodger and Mercer. The term "alt right" is attributed to Spencer as its originator and he is the/a founder of the movement.

But despite that you assert that the SPLC did not say they were motivated by the Alt Right? LOL. hoooookayyyyyy.....

Apparently you read the first paragraph, and based your inaccurate characterization of what it says on that. You are unable to cite anything in the article that supports your assertion that the SPLC said that the psychotic loner in question was motivated by Spencer or the alt-right, because they don't say that. In fact they point out that he has been adopted by the alt-right as somebody who acted on ideas that they support, and that his actions are celebrated on alt-right aligned sites. It's members of the alt-right themselves who have claimed him as one of their own ('the patron saint of White Sharia'). The SPLC is taking them at their word, nothing more, nothing less.

[Forty Two]

Your claim - the SPLC does not say the two murderers I referenced were influenced by the alt-right.

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) counted over 100 people killed or injured by alleged perpetrators influenced by the so-called "alt-right" — a movement that continues to access the mainstream and reach young recruits.

The list of the alleged alt-right-influenced perpretrators is in the article and includes Rodger and Mercer. You can't get clearer than that.

Oh, wait, you can -- In the meat of the article it says "But Atchison wasn’t the first to fit the profile of alt-right killer—that morbid milestone belongs to Elliot Rodger..."

The morbid milestone which Elliot Rodger has is being the "first to fit the profile of an alt-right killer." You said I couldn't identify anything in the article that says Rodger was motivated by the alt right? The article says he was the first "alt right killer." If he wasn't motivated by the alt-right, then he's not an alt right killer, is he? And, the list of killers, including Rodger and Mercer, are ALL listed because they are "influenced by the alt-right" so says the SPLC.

The article flat out says that Rodger was an "alt right killer." It does not say he was "adopted by the alt right later." https://www.splcenter.org/20180205/alt- ... ing-people

I mean, come on man....

[L'Emmerdeur]

The article does show clear evidence that he was adopted by the alt-right as a champion of their views. It does not claim that he was motivated by the Spencer and the alt-right, no matter how assiduously you attempt to twist what it actually says.

[Forty Two]

The article does show clear evidence that he was adopted by the alt-right as a champion of their views. It does not claim that he was motivated by the Spencer and the alt-right, no matter how assiduously you attempt to twist what it actually says.

The article (a) includes him in a list of what the SPLC calls "alt right killers," and (b) outright, flat out, literally SAYS he was the first "alt right killer" and (c) specifically includes him in the 110 killers who were INFLUENCED BY (not merely "adopted" by) the alt right.

It absolutely claims he was motivied by the alt right, because the entire list of 110 killers are on that list precisely because the SPLC says they were influenced by the alt-right to commit their murders.

I'm not twisting anything, you are. I'm taking the article at it's literal words.

[Seabass]

Regarding Jordan Peterson

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

, don't take pErvinalia's word for it, for he knows not of what he speaks. Just go to his youtube channel and listen calmly to what the guy says with a view to trying to understand what he's talking about and give him a fair shake. If after that, you think the guy is the kook pErvinalia implies he is, so be it.

He's been a University of Toronto professor for over 30 years, and has been a clinical psychologist for decades as well.

What pErvinalia is alluding to with his reference to cultural Marxism is Peterson's view concerning the Marxist roots of postmodern philosophy, which is the underpinning or foundation of the social justice movement.



The book he references at the beginning is Solzhenitzyn's "Gulag Archipelago." Fantastic and moving book. That's a must read for anyone who wants to understand the 20th century.

Another way to say part of what Peterson says is that identity politics has common roots with the Marxist idea of dialectical materialism and class struggle. Marxist dialectic looks at various issues in society, identifies their polar opposites, then takes their inversions as Marxist viewpoints. So, the transition was from economic class dialectic (proletariat vs. bourgeoise), and they used the same concept with black vs. white, man vs. woman, etc. The dialectic takes the racial and sexual polar opposites, inverts them, and that's the Marxist dialetic viewpoint.

He adds that the social justice and identify politics folks are moving under a postmodernist concept, which does not acknowledge logic, reason or truth. The "truth" is just the winning idea from the dialectical struggle. Identity group vs. identity group, and the oppressed group has the truth. You see it in the "Progressive Stack" and in the idea that identity groups must not be questioned in "their truth" and it is seen in the "everything is sexist" and "patriarchy" ideas, and you see it throughout identity politics.

After classical Marxist had been thoroughly discredited by the end of the 1960s, the old Marxist, led by the French philsophers, adopted postmodernism - e.g. Foucault and Derrida, and their obscurantist philosophers and "critical theory." And Critical Theory is the neo-Marxist philosophy of the Frankfurt School.



His critiques of postmodernism is consistent with Noam Chomsky's critiques of postmodernism as well. There is no reality, just narrative and truth is the winning narrative because there really is no truth. You see that within the progressive social justice movement.

Chomsky argued that postmodernism is meaningless because it adds nothing to analytical or empirical knowledge, and alleges that postmodernist intellectuals won't respond like people in other fields when asked: "Seriously, what are the principles of their theories, on what evidence are they based, what do they explain that wasn't already obvious, etc? These are fair requests for anyone to make. If they can't be met, then I'd suggest recourse to Hume's advice in similar circumstances: to the flames!"

Christopher Hitchens in "Why Orwell Matters," wrote, "The Postmodernists' tyranny wears people down by boredom and semi-literate prose." And, he said "The French, as it happens, once evolved an expression for this sort of prose: la langue de bois, the wooden tongue, in which nothing useful or enlightening can be said, but in which various excuses for the arbitrary and the dishonest can be offered. (This book) is a pointer to the abysmal state of mind that prevails in so many of our universities."

That's all what Peterson is talking about, and what pErvin, in his immense wisdom, descries and dismisses as a conspiracy theory of cultural Marxism.

Man, what the fuck is this twaddle? This is your most culty post yet.

Minority identity politics is reaction to majority identity politics. Gays wouldn't have to engage in identity politics if they were treated as equals by the hetero majority. The civil rights movement wouldn't have existed if the US didn't have a long history of institutionalized white racism.

Turns out, minorities want to be treated like everyone else. They're not the problem—bigots are.

Jesus, this is nuts. Don't forget to check under your bed for Marxists before you go to sleep.

[JimC]

Jesus, this is nuts. Don't forget to check under your bed for Marxists before you go to sleep.

Well, I was feelin’ sad and feelin’ blue
I didn’t know what in the world I wus gonna do
Them Communists they wus comin’ around
They wus in the air
They wus on the ground
They wouldn’t gimme no peace . . .

So I run down most hurriedly
And joined up with the John Birch Society
I got me a secret membership card
And started off a-walkin’ down the road
Yee-hoo, I’m a real John Bircher now!
Look out you Commies!

Now we all agree with Hitler’s views
Although he killed six million Jews
It don’t matter too much that he was a Fascist
At least you can’t say he was a Communist!
That’s to say like if you got a cold you take a shot of malaria

Well, I wus lookin’ everywhere for them gol-darned Reds
I got up in the mornin’ ’n’ looked under my bed
Looked in the sink, behind the door
Looked in the glove compartment of my car
Couldn’t find ’em . . .

I wus lookin’ high an’ low for them Reds everywhere
I wus lookin’ in the sink an’ underneath the chair
I looked way up my chimney hole
I even looked deep down inside my toilet bowl
They got away . . .

Well, I wus sittin’ home alone an’ started to sweat
Figured they wus in my T.V. set
Peeked behind the picture frame
Got a shock from my feet, hittin’ right up in the brain
Them Reds caused it!
I know they did . . . them hard-core ones

Well, I quit my job so I could work all alone
Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes
Followed some clues from my detective bag
And discovered they wus red stripes on the American flag!
That ol’ Betsy Ross . . .

Well, I investigated all the books in the library
Ninety percent of ’em gotta be burned away
I investigated all the people that I knowed
Ninety-eight percent of them gotta go
The other two percent are fellow Birchers . . . just like me

Now Eisenhower, he’s a Russian spy
Lincoln, Jefferson and that Roosevelt guy
To my knowledge there’s just one man
That’s really a true American: George Lincoln Rockwell
I know for a fact he hates Commies cus he picketed the movie Exodus

Well, I fin’ly started thinkin’ straight
When I run outa things to investigate
Couldn’t imagine doin’ anything else
So now I’m sittin’ home investigatin’ myself!
Hope I don’t find out anything . . . hmm, great God!

[Animavore]

That is the most incredible bait 'n' switch ever. Peterson agrees with Chomsky and Hitchens on Post Modernism, therefore he is rightfully nestled among them as an intellectual heavyweight!

Nevermind that Hitchens pretty much was a Marxist, and Chomsky certainly would never be a champion of Neo Nazis and InfoWars. Nor have I ever heard of fans of the latter have such cultish devotion to them that they "abused, harassed, and doxxed" their critics, as neither of those two were ever the type of people to rile people.

At least it all becomes clear now who 42 is ape-ing. " Peterson described Trump as a “liberal” and a “moderate”, no more of a demagogue than Reagan."

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... rnets-nest

This guy is akin to Hitchens and Chomsky?

Yet Peterson’s commitment to unfettered free speech is questionable. Once you believe in a powerful and malign conspiracy, you start to justify extreme measures. Last July, he announced plans to launch a website that would help students and parents identify and avoid “corrupt” courses with “postmodern content”. Within five years, he hoped, this would starve “postmodern neo-Marxist cult classes” into oblivion. Peterson shelved the plan after a backlash, acknowledging that it “might add excessively to current polarisation”. Who could have predicted that blacklisting fellow professors might exacerbate polarisation? Apparently not “the most influential public intellectual in the western world”.

Don't make me laugh.

[pErvinalia]

Can you give an example of SJWs adopting postmodernism?

Can anyone even give AN exa mole of an SJW is the real question. As far as I can see no such group exists. It's just a derogatory term given by racist, sexist, homophobic, bigots to generally anyone who wants to put an end to racism, sexism, homophobia, and bigotry. "Oh no! We can't call people by offensive and demeaning names in private spaces any more without getting removed or fired. Waah! Those SJWs are oppressing me."

SJW is the boogieman's boogieman.

There's definitely an extreme fringe element on the left that takes progressivism to an absurd length. I like things in neat boxes, so I'm happy to call them that. The only problem would be that nutbags like Peterson and 42 would include far more regular and reasonable progressives under the label than would someone more reasonable.

[Animavore]

Can you give an example of SJWs adopting postmodernism?

Can anyone even give AN exa mole of an SJW is the real question. As far as I can see no such group exists. It's just a derogatory term given by racist, sexist, homophobic, bigots to generally anyone who wants to put an end to racism, sexism, homophobia, and bigotry. "Oh no! We can't call people by offensive and demeaning names in private spaces any more without getting removed or fired. Waah! Those SJWs are oppressing me."

SJW is the boogieman's boogieman.

There's definitely an extreme fringe element on the left that takes progressivism to an absurd length. I like things in neat boxes, so I'm happy to call them that. The only problem would be that nutbags like Peterson and 42 would include far more regular and reasonable progressives under the label than would someone more reasonable.

I'm happy to call any group of people who identify themselves as SJWs. Otherwise who are you talking about, exactly? People call gaming website IGN "SJW" because they have inclusive rules on their forum and will ban bigots (laughably being accused of killing free speech by people who don't understand that private house rules fall outside of the public sphere). Marvel and Star Wars movies are SJW to these people. The term SJW is barely above name-calling, used synonymously with "snowflake".

EDIT: I do wonder if Sesame Street is retroactively SJW to some.

[pErvinalia]

The Unfortunate Fallout of Campus Postmodernism
The roots of the current campus madness

The intellectual battlefields today are on college campuses, where students' deep convictions about race, ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation and their social justice antipathy toward capitalism, imperialism, racism, white privilege, misogyny and “cissexist heteropatriarchy” have bumped up against the reality of contradictory facts and opposing views, leading to campus chaos and even violence. Students at the University of California, Berkeley, and outside agitators, for example, rioted at the mere mention that conservative firebrands Milo Yiannopoulos and Ann Coulter had been invited to speak (in the end, they never did). Demonstrators at Middlebury College physically attacked libertarian author Charles Murray and his liberal host, professor Allison Stanger, pulling her hair, twisting her neck and sending her to the ER.*

One underlying cause of this troubling situation may be found in what happened at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash., in May, when biologist and self-identified “deeply progressive” professor Bret Weinstein refused to participate in a “Day of Absence” in which “white students, staff and faculty will be invited to leave the campus for the day's activities.” Weinstein objected, writing in an e-mail: “on a college campus, one's right to speak—or to be—must never be based on skin color.” In response, an angry mob of 50 students disrupted his biology class, surrounded him, called him a racist and insisted that he resign. He claims that campus police informed him that the college president told them to stand down, but he has been forced to stay off campus for his safety's sake.

How has it come to this? One of many trends was identified by Weinstein in a Wall Street Journal essay: “The button-down empirical and deductive fields, including all the hard sciences, have lived side by side with ‘critical theory,’ postmodernism and its perception-based relatives. Since the creation in 1960s and '70s of novel, justice-oriented fields, these incompatible worldviews have repelled one another.”

In an article for Quillette.com on “Methods Behind the Campus Madness,” graduate researcher Sumantra Maitra of the University of Nottingham in England reported that 12 of the 13 academics at U.C. Berkeley who signed a letter to the chancellor protesting Yiannopoulos were from “Critical theory, Gender studies and Post-Colonial/Postmodernist/Marxist background.” This is a shift in Marxist theory from class conflict to identity politics conflict; instead of judging people by the content of their character, they are now to be judged by the color of their skin (or their ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, et cetera). “Postmodernists have tried to hijack biology, have taken over large parts of political science, almost all of anthropology, history and English,” Maitra concludes, “and have proliferated self-referential journals, citation circles, non-replicable research, and the curtailing of nuanced debate through activism and marches, instigating a bunch of gullible students to intimidate any opposing ideas.”

Students are being taught by these postmodern professors that there is no truth, that science and empirical facts are tools of oppression by the white patriarchy, and that nearly everyone in America is racist and bigoted, including their own professors, most of whom are liberals or progressives devoted to fighting these social ills. Of the 58 Evergreen faculty members who signed a statement “in solidarity with students” calling for disciplinary action against Weinstein for “endangering” the community by granting interviews in the national media, I tallied only seven from the sciences. Most specialize in English, literature, the arts, humanities, cultural studies, women's studies, media studies, and “quotidian imperialisms, intermetropolitan geography [and] detournement.” A course called “Fantastic Resistances” was described as a “training dojo for aspiring ‘social justice warriors’” that focuses on “power asymmetries.”

If you teach students to be warriors against all power asymmetries, don't be surprised when they turn on their professors and administrators. This is what happens when you separate facts from values, empiricism from morality, science from the humanities.

In Yale, a movement against teaching Shakespeare in English courses, was spearheaded by postmodernist academics, working on Queer theory.

http://quillette.com/2017/03/07/methods ... s-madness/

What the fuck is this shit? That's not an example of an SJW adopting post-modernism. It would be like saying 12 out of 13 professors who signed xyz are Christian, therefore xyz is a Christian inspired document. I want an example of an SJW actually adopting post-modernism in their statements/critiques.

[Animavore]

I want an example of an SJW.

[pErvinalia]

Can you give an example of SJWs adopting postmodernism?

Can anyone even give AN exa mole of an SJW is the real question. As far as I can see no such group exists. It's just a derogatory term given by racist, sexist, homophobic, bigots to generally anyone who wants to put an end to racism, sexism, homophobia, and bigotry. "Oh no! We can't call people by offensive and demeaning names in private spaces any more without getting removed or fired. Waah! Those SJWs are oppressing me."

SJW is the boogieman's boogieman.

There's definitely an extreme fringe element on the left that takes progressivism to an absurd length. I like things in neat boxes, so I'm happy to call them that. The only problem would be that nutbags like Peterson and 42 would include far more regular and reasonable progressives under the label than would someone more reasonable.

I'm happy to call any group of people who identify themselves as SJWs. Otherwise who are you talking about, exactly? People call gaming website IGN "SJW" because they have inclusive rules on their forum and will ban bigots (laughably being accused of killing free speech by people who don't understand that private house rules fall outside of the public sphere). Marvel and Star Wars movies are SJW to these people. The term SJW is barely above name-calling, used synonymously with "snowflake".

EDIT: I do wonder if Sesame Street is retroactively SJW to some.

There's people who take things to absurd lengths, like - all white people are racist, maths is racist, biological sex doesn't exist, wearing a Trump hat is violence against minorities, that sort of thing. What nutbags like that do is damage progressivism and makes it easier for right wingers to dismiss large chunks of progressive policy through association with the extremes.

[Animavore]

Can you give an example of SJWs adopting postmodernism?

Can anyone even give AN exa mole of an SJW is the real question. As far as I can see no such group exists. It's just a derogatory term given by racist, sexist, homophobic, bigots to generally anyone who wants to put an end to racism, sexism, homophobia, and bigotry. "Oh no! We can't call people by offensive and demeaning names in private spaces any more without getting removed or fired. Waah! Those SJWs are oppressing me."

SJW is the boogieman's boogieman.

There's definitely an extreme fringe element on the left that takes progressivism to an absurd length. I like things in neat boxes, so I'm happy to call them that. The only problem would be that nutbags like Peterson and 42 would include far more regular and reasonable progressives under the label than would someone more reasonable.

I'm happy to call any group of people who identify themselves as SJWs. Otherwise who are you talking about, exactly? People call gaming website IGN "SJW" because they have inclusive rules on their forum and will ban bigots (laughably being accused of killing free speech by people who don't understand that private house rules fall outside of the public sphere). Marvel and Star Wars movies are SJW to these people. The term SJW is barely above name-calling, used synonymously with "snowflake".

EDIT: I do wonder if Sesame Street is retroactively SJW to some.

There's people who take things to absurd lengths, like - all white people are racist, maths is racist, biological sex doesn't exist, wearing a Trump hat is violence against minorities, that sort of thing. What nutbags like that do is damage progressivism and makes it easier for right wingers to dismiss large chunks of progressive policy through association with the extremes.

The problem is when you put the nut-bag outliers into a box and group them under a generic umbrella you immediately cement them as an existing entity to paranoid, Alt-Right types who must be fought. It's why the Alt-Right had to invent them in the first place from the singular bits of straw they've fashioned, from often unrelated individuals, into a larger, conglomerate strawman as something to rail against.

I'm not playing their game.

[pErvinalia]

They actually do need to be fought - in proportion to the threat they pose, which is miniscule. But they do need to be countered, as do all irrational sociopolitical ideas. But to claim some secret marxists conspiracy and that SJWs are a bigger threat to society than the alt-right, or even just garden variety conservatives, is utterly ridiculous.