What is feminism? PZ rape thread derail

[pErvinalia]

I still find it hard to accept, as a given, the concept of "patriarchy" as discussed by some sociologists and feminists. I do accept that in almost every culture the value of men and women were considered different and that both were granted benefits and obligations based on a rigid view of gender, but it is promoted as some kind of all encompassing culture where even language and action are all underpinned by the mechanisms of patriarchy, specifically in order to oppress women. That they claim a specifically willed motivation makes me see their claim as one of conspiracy.

Well this is where you go wrong, I think. I don't see it as a specific mechanism to oppress women. It's just an outcome of history. You don't have to impute any malevolent will to it (even though it's conceivable that in some quarters there probably is a bit of malevolence). There doesn't have to be an active conspiracy for there to be an actual patriarchal society.

[Audley Strange]

I still find it hard to accept, as a given, the concept of "patriarchy" as discussed by some sociologists and feminists. I do accept that in almost every culture the value of men and women were considered different and that both were granted benefits and obligations based on a rigid view of gender, but it is promoted as some kind of all encompassing culture where even language and action are all underpinned by the mechanisms of patriarchy, specifically in order to oppress women. That they claim a specifically willed motivation makes me see their claim as one of conspiracy.

Well this is where you go wrong, I think. I don't see it as a specific mechanism to oppress women. It's just an outcome of history. You don't have to impute any malevolent will to it (even though it's conceivable that in some quarters there probably is a bit of malevolence). There doesn't have to be an active conspiracy for there to be an actual patriarchal society.

Nor do I, but then I'm not the one using it that way and many self proclaimed feminists do, they do say it is in place to Oppress Women. You should read more of their nonsense, even outside the fringe bedlam of Apelust. A lot of this to me is obvious because I don't accept the platitudinous claim that "feminism is about equality". To me many of those who would claim themselves feminists are like those who claim themselves Christians. It sounds all nice and groupy and spiritual, but when they analyse both the myth and the crap the real hardcore believe, you have to turn away and say "not all Christians are like that."


I do agree what they are projecting is just an outcome of history (which may be correct, I'd argue the outcome is somewhat less about owning a set of balls and more about what value an individual has in society) an accident that lineage went down the male side, well that may have tipped the scales, but historically speaking I see no evidence that men had a better time under the powers than women, or vice versa. They were treated differently yes, both were granted narrow benefits and obligations. However for the majority of the time most men and women were treated like shit which is why we had the idea of UNIVERSAL suffrage.

So since many of the people who use the term Patriarchy, do it specifically to refer to a pro-male bias and are themselves apparently hyper-aware of the oppressive nature of language, why does it not seem like they are using it both as a conspiracy and a badly thought out one at that.

[hackenslash]

... while striving to identify what equality means, both sides seem to be diminishing certain roles and idealising others ...

This is an interesting turn of phrase. I'm not criticising it, because I know what you mean, but the wording itself is very interesting. ...equality... ...sides...

Carry on.

[Sælir]

Moral of the story is don't fuck anyone without a signed consent form.

He: Would you like to have sex with me?
Her: Yes.
He: I'll have my people contact your people, standard contract?
Her: Standard contract, no anal, oral by mutual consent.
He: Done. Meet back here next week?
Her: Great. Ciao!

Another moral is to steer well clear of Skepchicks, A+ers and Freethoughtbloggers. If a woman aligns herself in any way with that ilk, repossess the drink you bought her and tell her to buy her own fucking wine.

You can also add feminist to that. I wouldn't care if they looked like a supermodel I'm making a beeline for the door.

Ok, I'm on my tablet so it's a pain in the arse quoting everybody I wanted to answer but I'll start with this here above...

Like has been pointed out Dave is obviously not just talking about Skepchicks, A+ers and Freethoughtbloggers since he felt the need to add feminists to what had been said.
Feminism is about the equality of sexes. Yes, there might be more specific groups under the "label" of feminism who have their own ideas of what they consider feminism but in general the only thing you can assume when someone tells you she/he's a feminist is that they think the sexes should be equal.

Ok, like Dave has said he is not interested in having sex with women who are of that opinion.
Fine.
They probably don't want to have sex with him either.

That is totally up to him and he is of course allowed to state this opinion of his. I guess I was just a bit surprised

I am a feminist. I believe in the equality of the sexes and unlike Pappa and some others I think feminism is far from reduntant.
I think it will be when women get paid the same money as men for the same job, when specific housework or any other kind of work has stopped being considered a man's or a woman's job (there is no such thing), when women all around the world are no longer thought of being any less of a human being than men, when genital mutilation of women so they cannot enjoy sex has stopped... well, you get where I am going with this, don't you?

Feminism will not be redundant until the sexes are equal (and with religion, and unfortunately some atheists have I seen now, that is probably not going to happen any time soon).

I am a feminist. I laugh at jokes about almost anything (unless they're just not funny) and I often find silly what some other feminist find relevant to the "cause" but that is because they are jokes.
Dave was not joking, this is really his opinion.
That just makes me sad.

[DaveDodo007]

Moral of the story is don't fuck anyone without a signed consent form.

He: Would you like to have sex with me?
Her: Yes.
He: I'll have my people contact your people, standard contract?
Her: Standard contract, no anal, oral by mutual consent.
He: Done. Meet back here next week?
Her: Great. Ciao!

Another moral is to steer well clear of Skepchicks, A+ers and Freethoughtbloggers. If a woman aligns herself in any way with that ilk, repossess the drink you bought her and tell her to buy her own fucking wine.

You can also add feminist to that. I wouldn't care if they looked like a supermodel I'm making a beeline for the door.

Ok, I'm on my tablet so it's a pain in the arse quoting everybody I wanted to answer but I'll start with this here above...

Like has been pointed out Dave is obviously not just talking about Skepchicks, A+ers and Freethoughtbloggers since he felt the need to add feminists to what had been said.
Feminism is about the equality of sexes. Yes, there might be more specific groups under the "label" of feminism who have their own ideas of what they consider feminism but in general the only thing you can assume when someone tells you she/he's a feminist is that they think the sexes should be equal.

Ok, like Dave has said he is not interested in having sex with women who are of that opinion.
Fine.
They probably don't want to have sex with him either.

That is totally up to him and he is of course allowed to state this opinion of his. I guess I was just a bit surprised

I am a feminist. I believe in the equality of the sexes and unlike Pappa and some others I think feminism is far from reduntant.
I think it will be when women get paid the same money as men for the same job, when specific housework or any other kind of work has stopped being considered a man's or a woman's job (there is no such thing), when women all around the world are no longer thought of being any less of a human being than men, when genital mutilation of women so they cannot enjoy sex has stopped... well, you get where I am going with this, don't you?

Feminism will not be redundant until the sexes are equal (and with religion, and unfortunately some atheists have I seen now, that is probably not going to happen any time soon).

I am a feminist. I laugh at jokes about almost anything (unless they're just not funny) and I often find silly what some other feminist find relevant to the "cause" but that is because they are jokes.
Dave was not joking, this is really his opinion.
That just makes me sad.

Ho FFS Sælir, if your brand of feminism was the norm I would count myself a feminist, I would wear a 'this is what a feminist looks like' T shirt. I would wave a feminist flag from the rooftops. I would be the biggest feminist going. Do you really think am some pathetic male who is horrified that women might get equal rights. Nothing of what you wrote above is wrong, nothing about your opinion is objectionable by any decent human being what ever the gender. That said I'm going to get a little rude here. Have you been living under a fucking rock the last two decades because you are no longer in touch with what feminism has become. Look into what goes for gender studies these days and get back to me.

[Seth]

Feminism will not be redundant until the sexes are equal (and with religion, and unfortunately some atheists have I seen now, that is probably not going to happen any time soon).

Um, the sexes will never be "equal" because they have different functions in life and different plumbing. That's simply a biological fact.

Women have babies, and as a result of evolution they are the preferred and first-choice parental unit, particularly in the beginning when they are equipped to nourish the child. Yes, modern technology allows men to feed babies, but I see plenty of evidence that children are more successful in life when they are nurtured in their early years primarily by the mother. This appears to be true of almost all species. Penguins are an exception when it comes to incubating eggs, and I imagine there are others, but it's not a sign of "inequality" to suggest that mothers make better mothers than fathers do. It's a recognition of biological facts.

Where gender inequality comes is is where women are forced into the role of motherhood against their will.

Another form of gender inequality that requires redress is the "equal pay for equal work" discrimination that is commonplace. One of the arguments made for such pay inequality is the specious notion that women don't work as hard and that they need additional time off to accommodate their "womanly needs" like regular menstruation and having children. This of course is crap because when a woman has a child she generally isn't getting her full salary while off work...unless that's been negotiated as part of the compensation package. Undervaluing women merely because of their gender is a legitimate case of unconscionable discrimination, as is excluding women from areas of employment where their morphology and gender have no effect on their ability to do the work required.

And there are damned few areas of employment where morphology and gender are critical to job performance. There are many roles where males perform better than females, particularly where strength is a critical factor, but with modern engineering and technology those roles are quickly vanishing, as should gender discrimination in employment.

I point to the recent movie starring Charlize Theron, "North Country" as a shining example of unnecessary and unjustifiable gender discrimination in the workplace.

Then again, some women like to raise babies and keep the house and do the gardening rather than being high-powered executives.

"Feminism" should be about the elimination of involuntary gender-role assignment or discrimination.

[DaveD]

Moral of the story is don't fuck anyone without a signed consent form.

He: Would you like to have sex with me?
Her: Yes.
He: I'll have my people contact your people, standard contract?
Her: Standard contract, no anal, oral by mutual consent.
He: Done. Meet back here next week?
Her: Great. Ciao!

Another moral is to steer well clear of Skepchicks, A+ers and Freethoughtbloggers. If a woman aligns herself in any way with that ilk, repossess the drink you bought her and tell her to buy her own fucking wine.

You can also add feminist to that. I wouldn't care if they looked like a supermodel I'm making a beeline for the door.

Ok, I'm on my tablet so it's a pain in the arse quoting everybody I wanted to answer but I'll start with this here above...

Like has been pointed out Dave is obviously not just talking about Skepchicks, A+ers and Freethoughtbloggers since he felt the need to add feminists to what had been said.
Feminism is about the equality of sexes. Yes, there might be more specific groups under the "label" of feminism who have their own ideas of what they consider feminism but in general the only thing you can assume when someone tells you she/he's a feminist is that they think the sexes should be equal.

Ok, like Dave has said he is not interested in having sex with women who are of that opinion.
Fine.
They probably don't want to have sex with him either.

That is totally up to him and he is of course allowed to state this opinion of his. I guess I was just a bit surprised

I am a feminist. I believe in the equality of the sexes and unlike Pappa and some others I think feminism is far from reduntant.
I think it will be when women get paid the same money as men for the same job, when specific housework or any other kind of work has stopped being considered a man's or a woman's job (there is no such thing), when women all around the world are no longer thought of being any less of a human being than men, when genital mutilation of women so they cannot enjoy sex has stopped... well, you get where I am going with this, don't you?

Feminism will not be redundant until the sexes are equal (and with religion, and unfortunately some atheists have I seen now, that is probably not going to happen any time soon).

I am a feminist. I laugh at jokes about almost anything (unless they're just not funny) and I often find silly what some other feminist find relevant to the "cause" but that is because they are jokes.
Dave was not joking, this is really his opinion.
That just makes me sad.

Ho FFS Sælir, if your brand of feminism was the norm I would count myself a feminist, I would wear a 'this is what a feminist looks like' T shirt. I would wave a feminist flag from the rooftops. I would be the biggest feminist going. Do you really think am some pathetic male who is horrified that women might get equal rights. Nothing of what you wrote above is wrong, nothing about your opinion is objectionable by any decent human being what ever the gender. That said I'm going to get a little rude here. Have you been living under a fucking rock the last two decades because you are no longer in touch with what feminism has become. Look into what goes for gender studies these days and get back to me.

Just because gobshites, such as the nutters at Apelust, shout the loudest, doesn't mean they get to define feminism.
Or atheism, for that matter.

[Bella Fortuna]

That.

[Sælir]

Moral of the story is don't fuck anyone without a signed consent form.

He: Would you like to have sex with me?
Her: Yes.
He: I'll have my people contact your people, standard contract?
Her: Standard contract, no anal, oral by mutual consent.
He: Done. Meet back here next week?
Her: Great. Ciao!

Another moral is to steer well clear of Skepchicks, A+ers and Freethoughtbloggers. If a woman aligns herself in any way with that ilk, repossess the drink you bought her and tell her to buy her own fucking wine.

You can also add feminist to that. I wouldn't care if they looked like a supermodel I'm making a beeline for the door.

Ok, I'm on my tablet so it's a pain in the arse quoting everybody I wanted to answer but I'll start with this here above...

Like has been pointed out Dave is obviously not just talking about Skepchicks, A+ers and Freethoughtbloggers since he felt the need to add feminists to what had been said.
Feminism is about the equality of sexes. Yes, there might be more specific groups under the "label" of feminism who have their own ideas of what they consider feminism but in general the only thing you can assume when someone tells you she/he's a feminist is that they think the sexes should be equal.

Ok, like Dave has said he is not interested in having sex with women who are of that opinion.
Fine.
They probably don't want to have sex with him either.

That is totally up to him and he is of course allowed to state this opinion of his. I guess I was just a bit surprised

I am a feminist. I believe in the equality of the sexes and unlike Pappa and some others I think feminism is far from reduntant.
I think it will be when women get paid the same money as men for the same job, when specific housework or any other kind of work has stopped being considered a man's or a woman's job (there is no such thing), when women all around the world are no longer thought of being any less of a human being than men, when genital mutilation of women so they cannot enjoy sex has stopped... well, you get where I am going with this, don't you?

Feminism will not be redundant until the sexes are equal (and with religion, and unfortunately some atheists have I seen now, that is probably not going to happen any time soon).

I am a feminist. I laugh at jokes about almost anything (unless they're just not funny) and I often find silly what some other feminist find relevant to the "cause" but that is because they are jokes.
Dave was not joking, this is really his opinion.
That just makes me sad.

Ho FFS Sælir, if your brand of feminism was the norm I would count myself a feminist, I would wear a 'this is what a feminist looks like' T shirt. I would wave a feminist flag from the rooftops. I would be the biggest feminist going. Do you really think am some pathetic male who is horrified that women might get equal rights. Nothing of what you wrote above is wrong, nothing about your opinion is objectionable by any decent human being what ever the gender. That said I'm going to get a little rude here. Have you been living under a fucking rock the last two decades because you are no longer in touch with what feminism has become. Look into what goes for gender studies these days and get back to me.

Yes, FFS, Dave, "my kind" of feminism is just normal feminism. It is the norm.
I don't really know what kind of people you associate with if you don't understand that.

I have not been living under a rock for the last two decades but I have looked into gender studies and see nothing that I have to report back to you.
Was there anything specific you were referring to?

I think you saying that feminism has "become" something other than what it is to me a bit stupid.
It's kind of like saying that if a black child is adopted to Iceland after birth and has never known anything else but being Icelandic but vocal racist Icelanders say that black people aren't Icelandic and that the person wasn't even born here, therefore it isn't Icelandic...

Has this local minority of racists in Iceland redefined what it is to be Icelandic?
Is that child no longer Icelandic even though it has Icelandic citizenship?

You felt the need to add all feminists to those forementioned groups of A+ers, skepchicks and freethoughtbloggers and frankly I just didn't understand it.
Now you have explained it.
Your idea of feminists is very skewed

[Robert_S]

Just because gobshites, such as the nutters at Apelust, shout the loudest, doesn't mean they get to define feminism.
Or atheism, for that matter.

Who would want such a thing? What agenda would one have if they wanted those people to define all of feminism?

[charlou]

... while striving to identify what equality means, both sides seem to be diminishing certain roles and idealising others ...

This is an interesting turn of phrase. I'm not criticising it, because I know what you mean, but the wording itself is very interesting. ...equality... ...sides...

Carry on.

I looked at it later and noticed that too ... a somewhat revealing choice of words, I guess.

[Cormac]

When I did my undergraduate degree from 1992-1995 I studied English Literature and Classical Civilisation. At that time, the English Department was run and almost exclusively populated by people who self-identified as radical lesbian feminists. There was a core (obligatory) module on feminist reading, but in fact, there was no element of the course that was not shot through with the politics of the sexes.

Even then, the canard that "All men are rapists" and the extreme exhortations that we see from the Apelusters and their fellow travellers were all par for the course.

I'm not sure that feminism can be solely or even at all described as being about equality.

It seems to me that humanism is about equality.

I know that most people who support equality interpret feminism as being a movement or an attitude in support of equality. But the intellectual leadership and the activists of feminism, and therefore those who articulate the ideology see it differently. So, when many people hear the word feminism today, they interpret it in light of this different ideology.

I'm a humanist. I believe that men and women should have equity and equality in society. Of course, this is more easily said than defined.

[charlou]

Um, the sexes will never be "equal" because they have different functions in life and different plumbing. That's simply a biological fact.

Difference =/= inequality.

I'm a humanist. I believe that men and women should have equity and equality in society.

Aye, all peoples.

[DaveDodo007]

Maybe this topic should be split off into its own thread?

[Audley Strange]

When I did my undergraduate degree from 1992-1995 I studied English Literature and Classical Civilisation. At that time, the English Department was run and almost exclusively populated by people who self-identified as radical lesbian feminists. There was a core (obligatory) module on feminist reading, but in fact, there was no element of the course that was not shot through with the politics of the sexes.

Even then, the canard that "All men are rapists" and the extreme exhortations that we see from the Apelusters and their fellow travellers were all par for the course.

I'm not sure that feminism can be solely or even at all described as being about equality.

It seems to me that humanism is about equality.

I know that most people who support equality interpret feminism as being a movement or an attitude in support of equality. But the intellectual leadership and the activists of feminism, and therefore those who articulate the ideology see it differently. So, when many people hear the word feminism today, they interpret it in light of this different ideology.

I'm a humanist. I believe that men and women should have equity and equality in society. Of course, this is more easily said than defined.

It's pretty easily defined, but only legally, because anything else is going to be pandering to a specific sex which in turn causes friction. I was also in college during the mid-nineties and was involved in left politics from the mid-eighties and I find it hard to believe that people are oblivious to the ridiculously hypocritical actions and rhetoric coming from Feminism. However I guess many Christians don't recognise the guys that blow up abortion hospitals as Christians. Real Christians are all about peace on earth and goodwill to all men, right?