Women at Atheist/Skeptic Events - Uncomfortable?

[Coito ergo sum]

The women here look justifiably terrorized.

I think I've discovered why women won't show up in large numbers at atheist events.....

....I never looked at the crowds this way before....and ....damn!...the men at these events are ...well, how shall we put this delicately....oh, yes... here are the words: old, fat, and/or ugly. Of course women wouldn't want to waste their time there!

Not to mention the dress sense on the ones that are young. Shirt tucked in to jeans pulled up to their armpits with a rucksack on their back with straps pulled tight[/judgemental]

I hadn't mentioned it, but I did think it. Who goes out dressed like that? I mean - you're going to a conference where there are lots of other people around - put on a flippin' pair of pants that fit, for crying out loud! And, fucking shave! And, at least iron the shirt - it's like a crowd of ratty t-shirts, and wrinkly button downs with old jeans slung under the protruding belly....

I think I'm changing my view on this. If Skepchick was accosted by one of those fellas, maybe she should be given carte blanche to mace the fuck out of him....

[Coito ergo sum]

there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

Good for you. I do see, though, how women can feel uneasy because of the mere presence of men, and why that is not necessarily an unreasonable feeling even if those men (singular or plural) do not behave menacingly at all. Phaedra Starling explains it much better than I could in Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced.

I see absolutely no reason for men to change ordinary behaviour, or for society to impose restraints on men's ordinary behaviour, because someone feels anxiety or discomfort. Life happens.

The ordinary behavior of some men is to be boorish, rude, demanding and aggressive.
If that shoe doesn't fit, then when I as a person ask such men to either stop or stay away, then I don't mean you.

I think there is a disconnect in the argument here. Nobody is saying women can't ask whoever they don't wan to interact with to "stop or go away." A guy might come up to you in the most polite way possible, and be the most unthreatening person ever, and you might just not want to talk to him for some arbitrary reason or no reason at all. Send him packing, and heck - be rude as fuck to the guy if you want to - say "get the flying fuck out of here you neo-maxi-zoon-dweebie! You suck ass!" Such is your absolute right.

[hadespussercats]

The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.

CES: The desire not to be killed or violently assaulted is "strange" to men? Not by a long shot. Men are far more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime. Sex Differences in Violent Victimization U.S. Department of Justice Special Report September 1997, NCJ-164508.

“But wait! I don’t want that, either!”
Well, no. But do you think about it all the time? Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones? Because, for women, it is.

CES:For men also. The risk of the kind of violent crime may be different, but men are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime in general, so why wouldn't "preventing violent assault or murder" be part of a male's daily routine?

CES, here's the thing-- what you say about men being more frequently the targets of violent assault may be true, but in my experience, living in a city where people constantly think about the possibility of violent crime, it still isn't as immediate in men's concerns as it is for women. This is dangerous for men-- I get really frustrated when my husband comes home from work at three in the morning and talks about being glad that he's over six feet tall and 225 pounds.

"Honey, your height isn't going to help you if someone pulls a gun."

But I don't think my husband is unusual thinking this way. Women, on the other hand, are constantly having to think about the possibility of being harmed. Women as victims of violent crime is not only one of the most popular leads in news stories, but crime dramas on TV, horror films, murder mysteries-- the young dead woman, or the young victimized woman, is usually at the center. It's a big part of the culture. And that says a lot about us, in terms of what we're scared of, and maybe, in a sick vein, about cultural fantasies.

[maiforpeace]

To a certain extent your expectations are going to color your experiences. I've been to a few atheist events alone and have never felt uncomfortable - other than my usual shyness. Once I got over that, I met lots of people, made plenty of friends, and had a great deal of fun - and yes, there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

Though I'll be curious how men will be responding to me at atheist events now that I've lost a lot of weight...I was at Home Depot a few days ago and was quite taken aback at all the men who were offering to help me, when before they pretty much ignored me. Thing is, now that I'm in shape and stronger, I don't need the help like I did when I was heavier and out of shape.

[Coito ergo sum]

CES, here's the thing-- what you say about men being more frequently the targets of violent assault may be true, but in my experience, living in a city where people constantly think about the possibility of violent crime, it still isn't as immediate in men's concerns as it is for women. This is dangerous for men-- I get really frustrated when my husband comes home from work at three in the morning and talks about being glad that he's over six feet tall and 225 pounds.

"Honey, your height isn't going to help you if someone pulls a gun."

But I don't think my husband is unusual thinking this way. Women, on the other hand, are constantly having to think about the possibility of being harmed. Women as victims of violent crime is not only one of the most popular leads in news stories, but crime dramas on TV, horror films, murder mysteries-- the young dead woman, or the young victimized woman, is usually at the center. It's a big part of the culture. And that says a lot about us, in terms of what we're scared of, and maybe, in a sick vein, about cultural fantasies.

I get that. That doesn't seem to jog, however, with the general assertion that women walk around all day shaking in their boots, thinking every male they encounter might be Shrodinger's Rapist and puzzling out escape routes. I can certainly understand a woman's greater sensitivity to being raped. But, I do not see that as some sort of justification for labeling "men" as Shrodinger's Rapist and being afraid of all men. That's the same logic as saying that most crime in the city is committed by minorities, and therefore I will view all minorities as Shrodinger's Mugger because even though one minority person might not be a mugger, I have no way of knowing that person's intention until they prove otherwise. That would be racist. The same analysis about men is quite sexist.

And, with the Shrodinger's Rapist logic, your husband is being really "cavalier with his [own] safety," isn't he? I mean - shouldn't he view any male he comes in contact with as a potential mugger?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Though I'll be curious how men will be responding to me at atheist events now that I've lost a lot of weight...I was at Home Depot a few days ago and was quite taken aback at all the men who were offering to help me, when before they pretty much ignored me. Thing is, now that I'm in shape and stronger, I don't need the help like I did when I was heavier and out of shape.

Help was just part of what they were offering.

[Gallstones]

...you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance.

Good article Seraph. Thank you for the link.

What I don't get, is why this is an issue. Everyone, women and men both, set their own risk tolerance. What, exactly, is that supposed to tell us?

Is it supposed to tell us when men can ask women out and how? How does a man know whether your risk tolerance is "Hey baby wanna fuck?" Or, "care to come up for coffee?" Or, perhaps - no contact from males at all unless introduced in traditional fashion by an older chaperone?

Sure, we all set our own risk tolerance. But, what, exactly does that mean? Maybe my risk tolerance is that any stranger talking to me unnerves me. Does that mean that the strangers that talk to me have necessarily done something wrong?

It is important to me to have it acknowledged because I have experienced resentment and hostility for turning men down as well as violence and assault. In my experience not every man is aware of something that is so obvious to most others.

What does it hurt you that a stranger on the internet decides to discuss it as an idea?

[maiforpeace]

Though I'll be curious how men will be responding to me at atheist events now that I've lost a lot of weight...I was at Home Depot a few days ago and was quite taken aback at all the men who were offering to help me, when before they pretty much ignored me. Thing is, now that I'm in shape and stronger, I don't need the help like I did when I was heavier and out of shape.

Help was just part of what they were offering.

But I wasn't even in the nuts, bolts and screw department!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Though I'll be curious how men will be responding to me at atheist events now that I've lost a lot of weight...I was at Home Depot a few days ago and was quite taken aback at all the men who were offering to help me, when before they pretty much ignored me. Thing is, now that I'm in shape and stronger, I don't need the help like I did when I was heavier and out of shape.

Help was just part of what they were offering.

But I wasn't even in the nuts, bolts and screw department!

In their minds, everywhere is the screw department.

[Gallstones]

there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

Good for you. I do see, though, how women can feel uneasy because of the mere presence of men, and why that is not necessarily an unreasonable feeling even if those men (singular or plural) do not behave menacingly at all. Phaedra Starling explains it much better than I could in Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced.

I see absolutely no reason for men to change ordinary behaviour, or for society to impose restraints on men's ordinary behaviour, because someone feels anxiety or discomfort. Life happens.

The ordinary behavior of some men is to be boorish, rude, demanding and aggressive.
If that shoe doesn't fit, then when I as a person ask such men to either stop or stay away, then I don't mean you.

I think there is a disconnect in the argument here. Nobody is saying women can't ask whoever they don't wan to interact with to "stop or go away." A guy might come up to you in the most polite way possible, and be the most unthreatening person ever, and you might just not want to talk to him for some arbitrary reason or no reason at all. Send him packing, and heck - be rude as fuck to the guy if you want to - say "get the flying fuck out of here you neo-maxi-zoon-dweebie! You suck ass!" Such is your absolute right.

Uh, I think you overlooked my other post.

In the post of mine you quoted I intentionally mentioned a shoe and whether it fit. I think you missed that.

[Coito ergo sum]

To a certain extent your expectations are going to color your experiences. I've been to a few atheist events alone and have never felt uncomfortable - other than my usual shyness. Once I got over that, I met lots of people, made plenty of friends, and had a great deal of fun - and yes, there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

Though I'll be curious how men will be responding to me at atheist events now that I've lost a lot of weight...I was at Home Depot a few days ago and was quite taken aback at all the men who were offering to help me, when before they pretty much ignored me. Thing is, now that I'm in shape and stronger, I don't need the help like I did when I was heavier and out of shape.

It's something in our natures. Pretty girls get more help from men than less pretty girls. Pretty girls learn to play on this, and will often get men to do things for them.

[Gallstones]

To a certain extent your expectations are going to color your experiences. I've been to a few atheist events alone and have never felt uncomfortable - other than my usual shyness. Once I got over that, I met lots of people, made plenty of friends, and had a great deal of fun - and yes, there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

Though I'll be curious how men will be responding to me at atheist events now that I've lost a lot of weight...I was at Home Depot a few days ago and was quite taken aback at all the men who were offering to help me, when before they pretty much ignored me. Thing is, now that I'm in shape and stronger, I don't need the help like I did when I was heavier and out of shape.

It's something in our natures. Pretty girls get more help from men than less pretty girls. Pretty girls learn to play on this, and will often get men to do things for them.

Pretty girls are harrassed more too.

[hadespussercats]

CES, here's the thing-- what you say about men being more frequently the targets of violent assault may be true, but in my experience, living in a city where people constantly think about the possibility of violent crime, it still isn't as immediate in men's concerns as it is for women. This is dangerous for men-- I get really frustrated when my husband comes home from work at three in the morning and talks about being glad that he's over six feet tall and 225 pounds.

"Honey, your height isn't going to help you if someone pulls a gun."

But I don't think my husband is unusual thinking this way. Women, on the other hand, are constantly having to think about the possibility of being harmed. Women as victims of violent crime is not only one of the most popular leads in news stories, but crime dramas on TV, horror films, murder mysteries-- the young dead woman, or the young victimized woman, is usually at the center. It's a big part of the culture. And that says a lot about us, in terms of what we're scared of, and maybe, in a sick vein, about cultural fantasies.

I get that. That doesn't seem to jog, however, with the general assertion that women walk around all day shaking in their boots, thinking every male they encounter might be Shrodinger's Rapist and puzzling out escape routes. I can certainly understand a woman's greater sensitivity to being raped. But, I do not see that as some sort of justification for labeling "men" as Shrodinger's Rapist and being afraid of all men. That's the same logic as saying that most crime in the city is committed by minorities, and therefore I will view all minorities as Shrodinger's Mugger because even though one minority person might not be a mugger, I have no way of knowing that person's intention until they prove otherwise. That would be racist. The same analysis about men is quite sexist.

And, with the Shrodinger's Rapist logic, your husband is being really "cavalier with his [own] safety," isn't he? I mean - shouldn't he view any male he comes in contact with as a potential mugger?

Being aware of the constant possibililty of violence is different from "shaking in [my] boots." If I'm in an elevator, and a guy I feel weird about (for any reason-- I don't question gut instinct anymore, though I used to when I was younger and thought it was more important to be nice and non-judgmental)
--Anyway, guy steps on, I'll often act like "Oh, this is my stop," and get out, and wait for another elevator. No fear, just awareness and action.

I check out the look of streets before I walk down them by myself. Lots of shops open? Lots of pedestrians? Then okay. Looks like a wasteland? Keep walking another block or two before I make the turn. Again-- not shaking in my boots, just making assessments and acting on them.

Weird guy gets on the subway? (Huge range of what might qualify a guy as weird-- I go by my gut, and my gut might not be fair.) I might casual-like change my seat to be closer to other women, or change cars.

I remeber when I was 25 or so, in grad school, which was in lower Manhattan, coming home from a late night working until 5 in the morning. I decided it wasn't right that I should feel afraid to walk the street by myself just because I was a young woman. I had no money for a cab, so I headed for the subway.

I saw a group of kids-- early teens, it looked like, riding their bikes up the sidewalk toward me. They had their hoodies pulled up around their faces. I saw them, and they frightened me a bit. But I thought, "Come on-- I'm just being age-ist and racist-- that's just a bunch of boys having fun on their bikes, and it's cold out."

As they rode past me, each one smacked me in the face.

I ran to the subway, stayed in view of the ticket-taker's booth, rode home near a subway door so I could hop off the train if I needed to fast, and made it home.

But that was a stupid risk I took, all because I was trying not to be sexist, racist, age-ist, or overly fearful. I'm lucky all they did was smack me in the face-- that they didn't turn around and follow me down in to the subway.

So yeah, now my assessments aren't always fair. Some nice guys probably get smeared in my mind.

Too fucking bad. I'm more concerned with saving my skin. And they'll survive a woman not being nice to them.

[Coito ergo sum]

...you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance.

Good article Seraph. Thank you for the link.

What I don't get, is why this is an issue. Everyone, women and men both, set their own risk tolerance. What, exactly, is that supposed to tell us?

Is it supposed to tell us when men can ask women out and how? How does a man know whether your risk tolerance is "Hey baby wanna fuck?" Or, "care to come up for coffee?" Or, perhaps - no contact from males at all unless introduced in traditional fashion by an older chaperone?

Sure, we all set our own risk tolerance. But, what, exactly does that mean? Maybe my risk tolerance is that any stranger talking to me unnerves me. Does that mean that the strangers that talk to me have necessarily done something wrong?

It is important to me to have it acknowledged because I have experienced resentment and hostility for turning men down as well as violence and assault. In my experience not every man is aware of something that is so obvious to most others.

What does it hurt you that a stranger on the internet decides to discuss it as an idea?

But, don't you see. You have every right to turn anyone down, but it's impossible for you to control their feelings. If they resent being turned down, then they resent being turned down. Who gives a fuck what they resent? And, what does that have to do with you having the right to set your risk tolerance? I mean - either a guy can walk up to you, say, in a bar and say "hi, can I buy your a drink," or he can't. He can't know until he asks the question whether that is within your "risk tolerance." If you say "no," then it's incumbent upon him to take no for an answer. If he is resentful, that's his problem. If he touches you, or badgers/harasses you, then call the cops. Nobody is allowed to touch/badger/harass other people - men or women.

What's the "something" you're referring to there?

It doesn't hurt me that a stranger on the internet decides to discuss it as an idea - where did I say I was hurt? I'm merely engaging in the discussion. It doesn't hurt me that Christians make arguments and have discussions on the internet either, but I participate in those discussions and I often think they're way off base....too.

[Coito ergo sum]

I see absolutely no reason for men to change ordinary behaviour, or for society to impose restraints on men's ordinary behaviour, because someone feels anxiety or discomfort. Life happens.

The ordinary behavior of some men is to be boorish, rude, demanding and aggressive.
If that shoe doesn't fit, then when I as a person ask such men to either stop or stay away, then I don't mean you.

I think there is a disconnect in the argument here. Nobody is saying women can't ask whoever they don't wan to interact with to "stop or go away." A guy might come up to you in the most polite way possible, and be the most unthreatening person ever, and you might just not want to talk to him for some arbitrary reason or no reason at all. Send him packing, and heck - be rude as fuck to the guy if you want to - say "get the flying fuck out of here you neo-maxi-zoon-dweebie! You suck ass!" Such is your absolute right.

Uh, I think you overlooked my other post.

In the post of mine you quoted I intentionally mentioned a shoe and whether it fit. I think you missed that.

What I was doing was illustrating that we have two different arguments here.

1. Whether it is sexual objectification, misogynistic, harassing, and/or threatening to a woman to be approached by a man in the first place.

2. Whether men ought to take no for an answer AFTER they have been told "no - go away."

You seem to be focusing on the latter, which I think nobody disagrees with. I stated it in extreme form, suggesting that your "no go away" is justified by your mere whim, and has nothing to do with how nice or mean the guy is. You might not like his look, or you might simply not want to be bothered by anyone. So, you say "go away" - and his job is to go away. Nothing can stop him from feeling resentful or pissed off. That's his fucking problem.

With regard to item 1, however, a guy doesn't know your answer to the question "can I buy you a drink" until you answer it. And, whether you set your own risk tolerance or not, he can't know what your risk tolerance is until he asks the question. So, you may not want guys to say "care to come up to my room for coffee" or "can I buy you a drink," but, other than a blanket rule that men can never ask those things in the first place, what are men to do?