Women at Atheist/Skeptic Events - Uncomfortable?

[Cormac]

One of the article comments links to this cartoon, which highlights part of the problem as I see it:

[Cormac]

From Schrodinger's Rapist....

So far, so good. Miss LonelyHearts, your humble instructor, approves. Human connection, love, romance: there is nothing wrong with these yearnings.

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest ... ing-maced/

The author will need to specify which yearnings she doesn't approve of. I get the impression that the yearning for no-strings-attached sexual encounters does not meet her approval.

The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.

The desire not to be killed or violently assaulted is "strange" to men? Not by a long shot. Men are far more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime. Sex Differences in Violent Victimization U.S. Department of Justice Special Report September 1997, NCJ-164508.

“But wait! I don’t want that, either!”
Well, no. But do you think about it all the time? Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones? Because, for women, it is.

For men also. The risk of the kind of violent crime may be different, but men are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime in general, so why wouldn't "preventing violent assault or murder" be part of a male's daily routine?

When I go on a date, I always leave the man’s full name and contact information written next to my computer monitor. This is so the cops can find my body if I go missing. My best friend will call or e-mail me the next morning, and I must answer that call or e-mail before noon-ish, or she begins to worry. If she doesn’t hear from me by three or so, she’ll call the police. My activities after dark are curtailed. Unless I am in a densely-occupied, well-lit space, I won’t go out alone. Even then, I prefer to have a friend or two, or my dogs, with me. Do you follow rules like these?

The part about the dates seems paranoid. Certainly, if you're going on a blind date, then sure - someone else should know where you're going, that makes sense. But, "when I go on a date?" You mean - even with a man you've dated several times before? You have a buddy system for every time you go to the movies at night with a male "friend?" Friends are calling the cops if you don't check in by 3pm? Huh. Well, about the going out at night thing, most guys won't go walking around alone in a dangerous neighborhood alone in the dark either.

So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?

That sounds horrible. If that's what the author does every time a guy approaches her, then it sounds like the life of a woman is a living hell.

She writes:

To begin with, you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance.

Fair enough. But, by the same token, as she wrote 2 paragraphs previously,

I can’t see inside your head, and I don’t know your intentions.

That cuts both ways, actually. We don't know what your own risk tolerance is. So, when we say "hi, my name is Bill, I find you interesting..." we don't know whether your "risk tolerance" is that you feel uncomfortable about that, and we won't know it in an elevator or at a bar.

She writes -

If you expect me to trust you—to accept you at face value as a nice sort of guy—you are not only failing to respect my reasonable caution, you are being cavalier about my personal safety.

- I suppose whom you "trust" is something wholely within your own head. We don't even know if you're trusting us or not. How is a guy approaching a woman and saying hello or asking her for a date equivalent to an expectation that she trust us? It's up to the woman whether she trusts the guy. The guy can't ever know what her level of trust is. So, now, if she doesn't trust him, according to this writer, he is failing to respect her reasonable caution and being cavalier about her personal safety. And, that's all by doing absolutely nothing but opening up a conversation.

Now that you’re aware that there’s a problem, you are going to go out of your way to fix it, and to make the women with whom you interact feel as safe as possible. To begin with, you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance. When you approach me, I will begin to evaluate the possibility you will do me harm. That possibility is never 0%. For some women, particularly women who have been victims of violent assaults, any level of risk is unacceptable. Those women do not want to be approached, no matter how nice you are or how much you’d like to date them. Okay? That’s their right. Don’t get pissy about it. Women are under no obligation to hear the sales pitch before deciding they are not in the market to buy.

That's all well and good. But, how is a man to know which women have been the victims of violent assaults and don't want to be approached no matter what? The only alternative for a man, apparently, is to approach zero women, because they are all "Schodinger's Assault Victim." Right? Any woman that we come across might have been assaulted, and therefore it is disrespecting their risk tolerance and being cavalier with her personal safety to even talk to her.

The second important point: you must be aware of what signals you are sending by your appearance and the environment. We are going to be paying close attention to your appearance and behavior and matching those signs to our idea of a threat.

All well and good, but just like women don't know our intentions, we don't know what "appearance" and "behavior" constitute threats. Some women like biker dudes, who appear scruffy and dangerous, and have utter disdain for emo guys who appear small and safe. We don't know what you think is threatening.

This means that some men should never approach strange women in public. Specifically, if you have truly unusual standards of personal cleanliness, if you are the prophet of your own religion, or if you have tattoos of gang symbols or Technicolor cockroaches all over your face and neck, you are just never going to get a good response approaching a woman cold.

Personal cleanliness? What level is appropriate. I take 2 showers a day, which most people say is far more than average. Some people shower once every other day, which I find kind of gross. Tattoos and gang symbols and drawings on one's face? Really? It's just a rule that "those people" are never to approach women, ever? That sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Pay attention to the environment. Look around. Are you in a dark alley? Then probably you ought not approach a woman and try to strike up a conversation.

Why would a woman, according to this writer, even be in a dark alley? That is being a tad cavalier with her own safety, if she can't even step outside her door without constantly calculating her risk of being raped, and leaving her whereabouts known so her body can be found.....

The third point: Women are communicating all the time. Learn to understand and respect women’s communication to you.

Sure, but women are all over the map on this. One woman's obvious hint, is not another woman's hint. This is a request to be a mind reader.

You want to say Hi to the cute girl on the subway. How will she react? Fortunately, I can tell you with some certainty, because she’s already sending messages to you. Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you = do not disturb. So, y’know, don’t disturb her. Really.

That may be the author's tells, but not all women send those messages purposefully. Most women don't go around broadcasting their sexual intentions, whether positive or negative, as they go through their daily routine. A woman may be reading a book, because she's passing the time on the way to work,and she may have seen you many times, but hasn't thought to send out any signal that she wants to be talked to. Sometimes, whether a woman wants to talk to a guy DEPENDS on the approach by the guy. Is he smooth, does he seem nice after actually saying something? Is he polite or does he try a corny line?

If you speak, and she responds in a monosyllabic way without looking at you, she’s saying, “I don’t want to be rude, but please leave me alone.” You don’t know why. It could be “Please leave me alone because I am trying to memorize Beowulf.” It could be “Please leave me alone because you are a scary, scary man with breath like a water buffalo.” It could be “Please leave me alone because I am planning my assassination of a major geopolitical figure and I will have to kill you if you are able to recognize me and blow my cover.”
On the other hand, if she is turned towards you, making eye contact, and she responds in a friendly and talkative manner when you speak to her, you are getting a green light. You can continue the conversation until you start getting signals to back off.

This all sounds suspiciously like that internet email joke that tells us how to "decode" what a woman says into what she "really means." You know that one... http://beerpla.net/2008/01/05/what-a-wo ... lly-means/

The fourth point: If you fail to respect what women say, you label yourself a problem.

This fourth point I think is quite good. When a woman says “Look, this is a disproportionate response to a single date. You are making me uncomfortable. Do not contact me again.” It is incumbent on the man to not contact her again, ever.

[Gallstones]

[

A short dose of positive discrimination would help the situation?

How would one accomplish that without being patronizing toward women?

What I am unclear about is exactly why women feel uncomfortable? Is it the population disparity between men and women that in and of itself creates a discomfort? Do women feel they are unable to get a word in edgewise? Are the topics "male oriented?"

Has it been established that women who enter situations where they are a gender minority feel uncomfortable while there because they are the minority?

[Coito ergo sum]

[

A short dose of positive discrimination would help the situation?

How would one accomplish that without being patronizing toward women?

What I am unclear about is exactly why women feel uncomfortable? Is it the population disparity between men and women that in and of itself creates a discomfort? Do women feel they are unable to get a word in edgewise? Are the topics "male oriented?"

Has it been established that women who enter situations where they are a gender minority feel uncomfortable while there because they are the minority?

That's pretty much the question I'm asking. It seems to me that exactly that is often implied by those making the "uncomfortable" argument. Many people made that point about Elevator Guy, saying that at 4am in an elevator, men need to realize that they make women uncomfortable just by being there, even if they say nothing, and maybe even especially if they say nothing, but no matter what they say, it can be interpreted as uncomfortable...or even threatening.

I theorized that women were not likely to return to our local atheist groups because they were in the minority, and men tend to voice strong opinions in strong manners. A lone woman in a group of 10 men, or 2 in a group of 20, I have found special attention needs to be paid to them to get them to chime in as much as the guys. One needs to make overtures to them - to invite them to talk - where men might simply take an opportunity to chime in. I wondered myself if it was a matter of women feeling outnumbered in a boy's club, much like if one man attends a baby shower.

[Gallstones]

there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

Good for you. I do see, though, how women can feel uneasy because of the mere presence of men, and why that is not necessarily an unreasonable feeling even if those men (singular or plural) do not behave menacingly at all. Phaedra Starling explains it much better than I could in Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced.

...you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance.

Good article Seraph. Thank you for the link.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The women here look justifiably terrorized.

[Coito ergo sum]

...you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance.

Good article Seraph. Thank you for the link.

What I don't get, is why this is an issue. Everyone, women and men both, set their own risk tolerance. What, exactly, is that supposed to tell us?

Is it supposed to tell us when men can ask women out and how? How does a man know whether your risk tolerance is "Hey baby wanna fuck?" Or, "care to come up for coffee?" Or, perhaps - no contact from males at all unless introduced in traditional fashion by an older chaperone?

Sure, we all set our own risk tolerance. But, what, exactly does that mean? Maybe my risk tolerance is that any stranger talking to me unnerves me. Does that mean that the strangers that talk to me have necessarily done something wrong?

[Ayaan]

To a certain extent your expectations are going to color your experiences. I've been to a few atheist events alone and have never felt uncomfortable - other than my usual shyness. Once I got over that, I met lots of people, made plenty of friends, and had a great deal of fun - and yes, there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

How about that crazy guy at Skepticon? The one sitting on the other side of James Randi?

I wound up sharing a hotel room with him.

[Coito ergo sum]

The women here look justifiably terrorized.

I think I've discovered why women won't show up in large numbers at atheist events.....

....I never looked at the crowds this way before....and ....damn!...the men at these events are ...well, how shall we put this delicately....oh, yes... here are the words: old, fat, and/or ugly. Of course women wouldn't want to waste their time there!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The women here look justifiably terrorized.

I think I've discovered why women won't show up in large numbers at atheist events.....

....I never looked at the crowds this way before....and ....damn!...the men at these events are ...well, how shall we put this delicately....oh, yes... here are the words: old, fat, and/or ugly. Of course women wouldn't want to waste their time there!

Meh, there were over 500 people there, mostly Mizzou students. Sample is not intended to be a factual statement.

[hadespussercats]

there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

Good for you. I do see, though, how women can feel uneasy because of the mere presence of men, and why that is not necessarily an unreasonable feeling even if those men (singular or plural) do not behave menacingly at all. Phaedra Starling explains it much better than I could in Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced.

Thank you for posting this link, Seraph - the whole article is just perfect.
If you posted it on the "Dawkins at war with the feminists thread", maybe certain people might finally be granted understanding...?
Or maybe not.

It's there.

[Gallstones]

[

A short dose of positive discrimination would help the situation?

How would one accomplish that without being patronizing toward women?

What I am unclear about is exactly why women feel uncomfortable? Is it the population disparity between men and women that in and of itself creates a discomfort? Do women feel they are unable to get a word in edgewise? Are the topics "male oriented?"

Has it been established that women who enter situations where they are a gender minority feel uncomfortable while there because they are the minority?

That's pretty much the question I'm asking. It seems to me that exactly that is often implied by those making the "uncomfortable" argument. Many people made that point about Elevator Guy, saying that at 4am in an elevator, men need to realize that they make women uncomfortable just by being there, even if they say nothing, and maybe even especially if they say nothing, but no matter what they say, it can be interpreted as uncomfortable...or even threatening.

I theorized that women were not likely to return to our local atheist groups because they were in the minority, and men tend to voice strong opinions in strong manners. A lone woman in a group of 10 men, or 2 in a group of 20, I have found special attention needs to be paid to them to get them to chime in as much as the guys. One needs to make overtures to them - to invite them to talk - where men might simply take an opportunity to chime in. I wondered myself if it was a matter of women feeling outnumbered in a boy's club, much like if one man attends a baby shower.

There are a number of comments in this thread I would like to respond to, but I'll start here with a few brief comments of my own and then tackle the rest later. (I hope. If I can settle my thoughts).

I have never been to one of these events.

I enjoy the opportunity to have conversations with men.
This only happens if approached in a friendly manner and with good manners and good hygiene and the man is not three sheets to the wind.
If approached with the obvious intention to "hook up" I will ask him to go away, usually. If necessary I will get very assertive--but the man is the one who escalates my response to that level by his behavior. The latter has occurred numerous times, so I am wary.

I prefer the company of men over women.
I am comfortable initiating the contact.

I am not generally intimidated by being a gender minority and here is why:

• I was in the Army at the time of transition when women were being integrated into more and more occupations and the Women's Army Corps was disbanded.
  I worked as a Correctional Officer at Montana State Prison.
  I got my degree from an Agricultural College.

I rarely hesitate to express my POV. In fact, I expect to be able to do so.

I am accustomed to going places and doing things without an escort.

However, I only feel comfortable going to one bar alone. And that is the only bar I go to alone.
I never go with the intention to hook up with anybody, even another regular.

I consider having my dog with me similar to having a weapon on me and feel safer with him.
I guess that he is my male escort in a way.

[Animavore]

The women here look justifiably terrorized.

I think I've discovered why women won't show up in large numbers at atheist events.....

....I never looked at the crowds this way before....and ....damn!...the men at these events are ...well, how shall we put this delicately....oh, yes... here are the words: old, fat, and/or ugly. Of course women wouldn't want to waste their time there!

Not to mention the dress sense on the ones that are young. Shirt tucked in to jeans pulled up to their armpits with a rucksack on their back with straps pulled tight[/judgemental]

[Gallstones]

there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

Good for you. I do see, though, how women can feel uneasy because of the mere presence of men, and why that is not necessarily an unreasonable feeling even if those men (singular or plural) do not behave menacingly at all. Phaedra Starling explains it much better than I could in Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced.

I see absolutely no reason for men to change ordinary behaviour, or for society to impose restraints on men's ordinary behaviour, because someone feels anxiety or discomfort. Life happens.

The ordinary behavior of some men is to be boorish, rude, demanding and aggressive.
If that shoe doesn't fit, then when I as a person ask such men to either stop or stay away, then I don't mean you.

Just because there are persons who have unreasonable expectations doesn't mean that I do as well just because I might share some superficial similarity with those persons.

[Gallstones]

there were usually more men than women, but I never found it to be a problem.

Good for you. I do see, though, how women can feel uneasy because of the mere presence of men, and why that is not necessarily an unreasonable feeling even if those men (singular or plural) do not behave menacingly at all. Phaedra Starling explains it much better than I could in Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced.

I would also like to see the detail behind her assertion that 1 in 6 women in America are sexually assaulted. What constitutes sexual assault? Does it, for example, include being asked for coffee in a lift at 4am?

(This is not to in ANY way trivialise rape or physical abuse!).

Please don't.

Most sexual assaults are never reported. So we can't know the true extent.