The economics of love, marriage, etc. Is this a good deal?

[Trolldor]

Better to just stab yourself in the face.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I say try before you buy. Give each of the sisters a road test and compare the extras provided with each. See if a two-for-one deal is available, perhaps? Or could you take one or both of them on a lease-hire basis? It is definitely worth haggling to get the bast deal.

Oh, and don't take my advice either - it usually sucks when it involves women.

[FBM]

The only way to deal with this is to speculate wildly:

Face it, you're getting older and while the independence has been good, your desire for something more personable is building as old age looms ahead. This could be your last real chance to have that kind of life. Oh, but she's not really someone you're sure you can have that kind of relationship with. It would be totally physical and you know it, so would that really work for you? You know if it were a fling, you'd take it in a heart beat. You know that if it were someone you felt a real connection with you'd take it though perhaps more begrudgingly. But the sad truth is she's quickly approaching 30 and you're getting older, and the whole thing smells of desperation. Some people grow on each other, but are you willing to take that risk, and are you even still capable of doing that, or has life made you too jaded?

End speculation that may or may not be way off.

To the contrary, you're right on the money with a lot of it, and very close with other bits. (I really don't have a desire for something more personable as old age looms.)

[FBM]

Economics of marriage I get, but economics of love ... ?

Yes. The one who loves least controls the relationship. It's a power-and-control issue.

That post alone screams "Don't even consider it!"

Wait, that wasn't my idea. I read it in some psychology journal years ago. I subsequently observed various relationships in light of it, including some of my own, and found it to be largely true. I didn't say that to be pessimistic or calculating.

[Bella Fortuna]

Economics of marriage I get, but economics of love ... ?

Yes. The one who loves least controls the relationship. It's a power-and-control issue.

That post alone screams "Don't even consider it!"

Wait, that wasn't my idea. I read it in some psychology journal years ago. I subsequently observed various relationships in light of it, including some of my own, and found it to be largely true. I didn't say that to be pessimistic or calculating.

Uh-huh. You and your bacon will be very happy together...

[charlou]

(I really don't have a desire for something more personable as old age looms.)

What do you want as old age looms? The only 'pro' I can discern from your assessment of this idea is that you'll have someone available to shag when you're too old to pull, and presumably you think she'll be grateful enough for the security to accept that arrangement indefinitely? If that's the case I don't know whether to post or . I'll leave it at both ...

[FBM]

(I really don't have a desire for something more personable as old age looms.)

What do you want as old age looms? The only 'pro' I can discern from your assessment of this idea is that you'll have someone available to shag when you're too old to pull, and presumably you think she'll be grateful enough for the security to accept that arrangement indefinitely? If that's the case I don't know whether to post or . I'll leave it at both ...

What I was for old age is pretty much what I have now: to be left alone most of the time. But this conflicts with my body's demand for the occasional shag. While there is a practical, impersonal aspect to this sort of decision-making, it's not to the exclusion of nor in conflict with the personal, emotional aspect. It's simply another important aspect to consider. There are practical issues to every marriage that must be addressed 'objectively' (no, let's not get into that, please!), and interpersonal issues that are met by different means. Neither is right or wrong, better or worse. Martin Buber's "I and Thou" examines this.

One thing to consider is that Asia has a very long history of arranged marriages and matchmaking. It's still the norm in many, even most, parts of Asia. The first consideration is the practical aspects of the matching. The decision is often made by parents, relatives or someone paid to find a good mate for you. Romantic love isn't always considered to be an essential ingredient, and many people get married with nothing more than the hope that they will grow to love one another over time. Koreans have a word for a kind of attachment that isn't based on romantic love: 정, but it's damned hard to translate because it doesn't exactly match any single Western concept.

Another legitimate thing to consider is her and her family's financial status. Of course, whatever it is they almost surely hope to improve upon it, as most people do, and this is often the motive behind marriage with Western foreigners. Another is the powerful stigma against divorce. People are expected to work through the periods during which they can't stand each other, preserving the family integrity and honor. In Confucian-based societies, the public's perception of you is often more important than your own personal happiness. Acting selfishly at the expense of the family's reputation violates the fundamental principle of filial piety. Therefore, the question of how long her gratitude will last doesn't have so much bearing on how long she would accept the arrangement.

[Trolldor]

Motherfucker, don't go in to any relationship unless you actually have feelings. Don't do it for practical purposes, don't do it because you can't see anything else. More importantly, don't do it because you think she wants it. Yan-yan was in an arranged marriage with Yeah yeah and she was never happy with him, ever, even before he got abusive. Fuck man, just spend some time together, make sure you're actually fucking right, and see if you like her before you got motherfucking nuts with bells and shit. A marriage without love just makes you numb and bitter.

[charlou]

(I really don't have a desire for something more personable as old age looms.)

What do you want as old age looms? The only 'pro' I can discern from your assessment of this idea is that you'll have someone available to shag when you're too old to pull, and presumably you think she'll be grateful enough for the security to accept that arrangement indefinitely? If that's the case I don't know whether to post or . I'll leave it at both ...

What I was for old age is pretty much what I have now: to be left alone most of the time. But this conflicts with my body's demand for the occasional shag. While there is a practical, impersonal aspect to this sort of decision-making, it's not to the exclusion of nor in conflict with the personal, emotional aspect. It's simply another important aspect to consider. There are practical issues to every marriage that must be addressed 'objectively' (no, let's not get into that, please!), and interpersonal issues that are met by different means. Neither is right or wrong, better or worse. Martin Buber's "I and Thou" examines this.

One thing to consider is that Asia has a very long history of arranged marriages and matchmaking. It's still the norm in many, even most, parts of Asia. The first consideration is the practical aspects of the matching. The decision is often made by parents, relatives or someone paid to find a good mate for you. Romantic love isn't always considered to be an essential ingredient, and many people get married with nothing more than the hope that they will grow to love one another over time. Koreans have a word for a kind of attachment that isn't based on romantic love: 정, but it's damned hard to translate because it doesn't exactly match any single Western concept.

Another legitimate thing to consider is her and her family's financial status. Of course, whatever it is they almost surely hope to improve upon it, as most people do, and this is often the motive behind marriage with Western foreigners. Another is the powerful stigma against divorce. People are expected to work through the periods during which they can't stand each other, preserving the family integrity and honor. In Confucian-based societies, the public's perception of you is often more important than your own personal happiness. Acting selfishly at the expense of the family's reputation violates the fundamental principle of filial piety. Therefore, the question of how long her gratitude will last doesn't have so much bearing on how long she would accept the arrangement.

I was going to ask why you don't look for a companion who will be more rewarding than just someone available to shag? But I understand the need for physical intimacy, and I know it's possible for two people who fully accept the pragmatic nature of their relationship to then make the best of it and to develop a rapport which is supported/augmented by that mutual acceptance of the situation. But is that enough for an intelligent man ... for a young, attractive woman? Depends on the personalities and mindsets of the people ... What may work out marvellously for you with one woman may be absolutely horrendous with another, either from your perspective or hers ... or both.

I find it difficult to imagine not becoming dissatisfied and/or resentful, though, which is why I and at the notion that she'd be happy with the proposed arrangement as you envisage it ... but I recognise my feelings arise out of a western upbringing ... a culture that constantly reinforces a tendency to believe the grass is always greener, to look externally for our self esteem and gratification ...

A friend of my eldest son has an Asian mother (a so-called 'mail order' bride) ... a nice, caring, intelligent woman ... but she refers to her husband behind his back as 'the pig' with genuine disgust, and understandably so, given their particular relationship ...

On the other hand, my eldest daughter's partner's parents (father's European, mother's Asian), seem to be quite comfortable with the pragmatic nature of their marriage.

My own parents, both westerners, have stayed together for pragmatic reasons (not sure if shagging is among them, though), as well as an unwillingness to deviate from what they feel personally/culturally comfortable with.

[FBM]

Motherfucker, don't go in to any relationship unless you actually have feelings. Don't do it for practical purposes, don't do it because you can't see anything else. More importantly, don't do it because you think she wants it. Yan-yan was in an arranged marriage with Yeah yeah and she was never happy with him, ever, even before he got abusive. Fuck man, just spend some time together, make sure you're actually fucking right, and see if you like her before you got motherfucking nuts with bells and shit. A marriage without love just makes you numb and bitter.

I appreciate your concern, but if I could develop feelings for, say, a pet, I think I could develop feelings for just about anyone who isn't actively aggressive towards me. I have a platonic love for my friends, but we weren't even friends when we met first. Like you say, it comes from time and exposure. I'm not talking about a mail-order situation, and I haven't even decided whether or not to pursue the conversation with her. Hell, she might not even be actually offering herself up for barter, for that matter. I may be mis-interpreting her letter.

@Charlou,

Your first sentence was right on the point; I don't want a constant companion at all, just the occasional shag, for which I'm willing to sacrifice certain things, but not everything. I'm not willing to deceive people or use them without their fully-informed consent, either. Couldn't this sort of thing could be arranged with mutual affection developing later? In my experience, the hardest part of being married is having the SO up your ass every waking hour that you're not a work. I could maintain a long-distance relationship, but I wont' even entertain the possibility of a traditional one.

[Beatsong]

Not clear about a few things -

1. You know the culture better than I, but to me it seems very clear that her letter was trying to set you up with her younger sister, not herself. I'm not quite sure whether everyone fits in here. By "non-traditional" were you perhaps referring to a menage-a-trois?

2. Are you entertaining the idea of marrying her and continuing to live separately in your respective countries, rather than living together?

[M]

I hadn't seen this thread before, but it's up the list so I opened it and started reading the OP. However, I misread the poster's name and was reading for some time thinking "WTF is FIO on about?"

[maiforpeace]

I'm sorry I missed this interesting thread earlier. Thanks for bumping it Beatsong!

I personally think it's worth serious consideration FBM.

Nothing wrong with marrying for convenience in my opinion. As long as both parties are getting some benefit and feel like their needs are being met and respected, why not?

My uncle is almost 80 and married a woman 30 years his junior for practical reasons. She takes care of him - sex and affection, feeds him, cares for his health. He takes care of her - provides a roof, money, food, and gives her the freedom to do whatever she wants. When I was visiting she spent the night over at a friend's house a few times. No questions asked. Compared to many marriages that are founded on love, their marriage is ten times better in all kinds of aspects. They have grown to care for each other over time as well, and there is genuine love and respect between them. My cousins adore her, they are so happy their father is so well taken care of.

My uncle tells me all the time how much he appreciates her companionship and all she does for him, and that she will inherit the bulk of the monetary portion of his estate.

[FBM]

I'm sorry I missed this interesting thread earlier. Thanks for bumping it Beatsong!

I personally think it's worth serious consideration FBM.

Nothing wrong with marrying for convenience in my opinion. As long as both parties are getting some benefit and feel like their needs are being met and respected, why not?

My uncle is almost 80 and married a woman 30 years his junior for practical reasons. She takes care of him - sex and affection, feeds him, cares for his health. He takes care of her - provides a roof, money, food, and gives her the freedom to do whatever she wants. When I was visiting she spent the night over at a friend's house a few times. No questions asked. Compared to many marriages that are founded on love, their marriage is ten times better in all kinds of aspects. They have grown to care for each other over time as well, and there is genuine love and respect between them. My cousins adore her, they are so happy their father is so well taken care of.

My uncle tells me all the time how much he appreciates her companionship and all she does for him, and that she will inherit the bulk of the monetary portion of his estate.

That's really . I could see that kind of relationship for me. I just can't see myself getting into the romantic love thing. The whole mutually-agreed-upon-fantasy part just goes right over my head. Thanks for the story about your uncle. It's delicious food for thought!

[Surendra Darathy]

Better to just stab yourself in the face.

Perennially, this is good advice.

The details:

Motherfucker, don't go in to any relationship unless you actually have feelings. Don't do it for practical purposes, don't do it because you can't see anything else. More importantly, don't do it because you think she wants it. Yan-yan was in an arranged marriage with Yeah yeah and she was never happy with him, ever, even before he got abusive. Fuck man, just spend some time together, make sure you're actually fucking right, and see if you like her before you got motherfucking nuts with bells and shit. A marriage without love just makes you numb and bitter.

The coda: It's not what you don't know; it's what you don't know you don't know.

Even if you have "feelings", it may not work. (Voice of experience.) Better to just stab yourself in the face.