Problematic Stuff

[JimC]

You've missed the point. They can be (and have been) discriminated against in many different ways. This should diminish in time - the newer generations seem much more accepting than in the past. However, it is important that it is publicly stated and known that they exist, they have a right to be who they are, and that it is totally unacceptable to persecute them...

[pErvinalia]

Cunt wrote:

...What possible reason could this information be needed outside of arranging seating charts at an orgy?...

The key is understanding that many of the people who belong to the categories in the diagram are often regarded either as freaks, or that they are pretending for some weird left-wing reason. Given that this categories are real, it is important that they are recognised and accepted as legitimate expressions of personal expression...

Yes, their PERSONAL EXPRESSION.

It doesn't have to have anything to do with the broader public. Unless they want everyone involved in their sex life, that is.

Why not leave it where it belongs - a private matter?

For the nth time, because they are publicly discriminated against.

[Cunt]

I haven't missed the point because there isn't one.

Gender can change on a whim, can vary with the weather, or a person's newfound preference. Either way, there is no need to insist that everyone be accepting.

Respect granted by government fiat doesn't seem like the kind of thing one should support...governments have been notoriously bad at being human.

And LOTS of people are publicly discriminated against. For all kinds of good and bad reasons.

Would you like your right to discriminate to be legislated away? Is that the goal?

I would prefer to allow people to make their own choices, since discrimination laws don't seem to have a net positive effect anyway.

[pErvinalia]

Of course you would prefer to allow discrimination to continue. You are a white male in a white male dominated culture. You don't have to face discrimination on a daily basis.

[Cunt]

Of course you would prefer to allow discrimination to continue. You are a white male in a white male dominated culture. You don't have to face discrimination on a daily basis.

Wait i sec...aren't you the same guy who would descriminate against every republican, regardless of any other facts about them?

Maybe I shouldn't listen to you about how people ought to be dealing with each other...

[Cunt]

Of course you would prefer to allow discrimination to continue. You are a white male in a white male dominated culture. You don't have to face discrimination on a daily basis.

Wait i sec...aren't you the same guy who would descriminate against every republican, regardless of any other facts about them?

Maybe I shouldn't listen to you about how people ought to be dealing with each other...

Oh, and as far as being a white male, why don't you check your privilege and tell me how you came to that conclusion.

[Brian Peacock]

I haven't missed the point because there isn't one.

Gender can change on a whim, can vary with the weather, or a person's newfound preference. Either way, there is no need to insist that everyone be accepting.

Respect granted by government fiat doesn't seem like the kind of thing one should support...governments have been notoriously bad at being human.

And LOTS of people are publicly discriminated against. For all kinds of good and bad reasons.

Would you like your right to discriminate to be legislated away? Is that the goal?

I would prefer to allow people to make their own choices, since discrimination laws don't seem to have a net positive effect anyway.

Still ignoring the science L'Emmy posted earlier and saying that the way someone feels about their gender is a matter of choice eh - and a capricious and inexplicable choice at that, a whim even? They still say that gay is a choice in Kentucky you know - there's even programs that'll help you 'pray the gay away'. You know that's bollocks though don't you? What really is your worry about being asked to not call someone Sir or Madam if you get it wrong - is it purely falling fowl of a law which denies this, your private, view of the transgendered, or perhaps the idea that you're entitled to be able to insist they're wrong about themselves?

[Seabass]

If only there was a way to pray the conservatism away.

[pErvinalia]

Of course you would prefer to allow discrimination to continue. You are a white male in a white male dominated culture. You don't have to face discrimination on a daily basis.

Wait i sec...aren't you the same guy who would descriminate against every republican, regardless of any other facts about them?

Maybe I shouldn't listen to you about how people ought to be dealing with each other...

Non-sequitur. The logical fallacies are piling up, dude. The point stands. You don't face daily discrimination as a minority for something that is integral to your being. And being a conservative you lack the empathetic skills to understand what that would be like.

[pErvinalia]

Of course you would prefer to allow discrimination to continue. You are a white male in a white male dominated culture. You don't have to face discrimination on a daily basis.

Wait i sec...aren't you the same guy who would descriminate against every republican, regardless of any other facts about them?

Maybe I shouldn't listen to you about how people ought to be dealing with each other...

Oh, and as far as being a white male, why don't you check your privilege and tell me how you came to that conclusion.

I guess you could be an Uncle Tom, but it's exceedingly unlikely. Until we have other evidence at hand, you are an old white conservative.

[Cunt]

I haven't missed the point because there isn't one.

Gender can change on a whim, can vary with the weather, or a person's newfound preference. Either way, there is no need to insist that everyone be accepting.

Respect granted by government fiat doesn't seem like the kind of thing one should support...governments have been notoriously bad at being human.

And LOTS of people are publicly discriminated against. For all kinds of good and bad reasons.

Would you like your right to discriminate to be legislated away? Is that the goal?

I would prefer to allow people to make their own choices, since discrimination laws don't seem to have a net positive effect anyway.

Still ignoring the science L'Emmy posted earlier and saying that the way someone feels about their gender is a matter of choice eh - and a capricious and inexplicable choice at that, a whim even?

Not for everyone, surely. But with the law now in place, anyone can change their 'gender' at will, to whatever they want. If I misunderstood the law, say so, but I expect there will be a variety of uses, as honest as any variety of people.

They still say that gay is a choice in Kentucky you know

Well that sounds stupid.

Imagine, simplifying some element of human experience down to saying 'it's a choice', or 'it's not a choice'.

I say it doesn't matter. Choice or not.

Of course, it's also good to remember the question...do you mean 'gay' as in the way someone feels / who they are attracted to? Or 'gay' the homosexual act?

Each might yield different questions depending on who is asked.

You know that's bollocks though don't you?

The question? Yes. It's basically a thoughtless test to see if someone is 'on your side'. I'm probably not.

I think how one feels is not their choice entirely, but taking action IS. Deny that, and you deny the pain of every gay who hid their preference from public view.

What really is your worry about being asked to not call someone Sir or Madam if you get it wrong - is it purely falling fowl of a law which denies this, your private, view of the transgendered, or perhaps the idea that you're entitled to be able to insist they're wrong about themselves?

No, I reserve the right to mock them, Ms. Peacock.

Satire is fair game, even if the recipient doesn't like it.

Or do you think jokes are only ok if the person/group being targeted is, in your opinion, strong enough to weather it?

I guess you could be an Uncle Tom, but it's exceedingly unlikely. Until we have other evidence at hand, you are an old white conservative.

And with you self-described conservative discrimination, there is no chance you could change your mind. You should be proud to have innoculated yourself against alternate opinions.

[pErvinalia]

I always adapt to the most rational view. If you can present a rational argument for the type of conservatism practised by the Republicans in the US, have at it.

[Scot Dutchy]

You cant change gender at will. Once again Cunt you are being one. I think basically you are very uncomfortable at the thought what you see is not what you get.
Your attitude is: "Just keep it private so that I am not confronted with any of it as I cant handle it".
You forget these people (including me) are confronted with it every day of our lives. Thank fuck I am approaching 70 and the problems are far less and very containable. I am of the generation that if I had said as a kid I dont wont to be a boy I would probably ended up in a loony bin. The 50's were not very enlightened. Luckily kids today are listened to and there are far more happy people living their life as the gender they want to be.

[Brian Peacock]

I haven't missed the point because there isn't one.

Gender can change on a whim, can vary with the weather, or a person's newfound preference. Either way, there is no need to insist that everyone be accepting.

Respect granted by government fiat doesn't seem like the kind of thing one should support...governments have been notoriously bad at being human.

And LOTS of people are publicly discriminated against. For all kinds of good and bad reasons.

Would you like your right to discriminate to be legislated away? Is that the goal?

I would prefer to allow people to make their own choices, since discrimination laws don't seem to have a net positive effect anyway.

Still ignoring the science L'Emmy posted earlier and saying that the way someone feels about their gender is a matter of choice eh - and a capricious and inexplicable choice at that, a whim even?

Not for everyone, surely. But with the law now in place, anyone can change their 'gender' at will, to whatever they want. If I misunderstood the law, say so, but I expect there will be a variety of uses, as honest as any variety of people.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I am afraid your have misunderstood the law, and a few other things besides. Firstly you continue to operate on the assumption that gender is a choice -- the point you hastened to avoid there -- and, secondly, that the law now grants some right or licence to make a choice, that choice, which was previously unsecured in law, or maybe even forbidden. That's not the case. Thirdly, that anyone and everyone's gender identity is about trying on whatever kind of gender label one can think of, and fourthly, and most importantly of all, that the law allows "anyone [to] change their 'gender' at will" when in fact all it does is place on a legal footing the recognition of those gender-labels (for want of a better term) that more accurately reflect an individual's, well, individuality than was strictly defined in law before.

If you remember your social history you'll know that not too long ago women had little to no legal rights in society - they were the property of the men who owned them -- but, over time, the concerns and rights of women were argued for, recognised, supported, and finally integrated into statutes. And even within living memory the once morally and legally dubious status of queer citizens was acknowledged, addressed and, in time, an equality of standing and regard was formally integrated into statute law (a very similar thing happened with the black citizens in the US but for differnt reasons). Now we are recognising that the transgendered comprise a group that fells between the cracks as women and queers did and, acknowledging that, and addressing it, are coming up with solutions to remedy that legal shortfall. It's called progress.

You're bleating on about what this means for you, about how 'they' are making it illegal for you to use the wrong pronoun or complain about someone with boobs using the next urinal - but this isn't about you darling, not even a little bit. It's no more about you than giving women the vote was about men. You don't have to like the transgendered or even approve of them any more than you have to like or approve of queers, blacks, spics, wops, cripples, gingers, or country music fans (shudder), but their rights as unique individuals are every bit as important and necessary to them and society as yours are, so I'm afraid you're just going to have to suck it up and get used to it.

[Brian Peacock]

You cant change gender at will. Once again Cunt you are being one. I think basically you are very uncomfortable at the thought what you see is not what you get.
Your attitude is: "Just keep it private so that I am not confronted with any of it as I cant handle it".
You forget these people (including me) are confronted with it every day of our lives. Thank fuck I am approaching 70 and the problems are far less and very containable. I am of the generation that if I had said as a kid I dont wont to be a boy I would probably ended up in a loony bin. The 50's were not very enlightened. Luckily kids today are listened to and there are far more happy people living their life as the gender they want to be.

What have you done with the real Scot Dutchy?

You're right. Critics of the transgendered usually focus on this matter as being a folly of the youth, perhaps because they are usually middle-aged and were brought up with certian unwritten, unspoken, strict social boundaries which they take for granted norms. As such they see young adults complaining about the stuff as a threat to the 'normal' moral and cognitive order. They forget, or choose to ignore, that this isn't a newly-fabricated 'issue' mendaciously created by purple-haired gender-studies femi-nazis to bully fat old white guys with, but just a public acknowledgement and expression of something that been with our societies all along. If we don't like our young adults complaining about unfairness and injustice then we shouldn't have told them that fairness and justice are good things to begin with.