Problematic Stuff

[Brian Peacock]

Isn't denying transgender identity ignoring and de-legitimising the lived experience of the transgendered, along with what they say and think about who and what they are?

[Cunt]

The politically trans aren't happy just living as their chosen gender, they want you to acknowledge their new gender by calling them 'she' or whatever.

There have been trans people forever. Most would just live as the gender they chose, and you wouldn't know it (unless you were screwing them).

If you are looking to be different, don't be upset when everyone treats you different.

[L'Emmerdeur]

I've never been asked by the government for my gender. I've been asked for my sex. My birth certificate didn't have a "gender" space when I was born. It asked for my sex, which was entered as male. The trend today is for people to conflate sex and gender and say that since the birth certificate said male, then I was improperly raised as gender male when I identify as female. Only, nobody knew when I was born what I would later identify as. They didn't care. My sex was male. I'm male. If identify as both male and female now - or a spectrum of gender identities from male to female - what does it matter from the standpoint of birth certificate? I'm male in any case. So what?

In the case of the US, many jurisdictions do recognize that transgender identity is valid; including gender identity or expression in their anti-discrimination statutes. Other states (Australia and the UK for instance) explicitly recognize gender identity.

Same thing with my driver license - it doesn't tell my gender. It says "sex: M" -- I am "M." So what? If I want to identify as "nonbinary" why does that have to be on my driver license or birth certificate?

Why not?

And, since the modern trans theory is that gender is fluid and can change from year to year, month to monty or even day to day - how can we put any designation on there, if it relates to gender? Just put the sex on there, and have done with it. Identify as whatever you want - a pygmy alien gay boy with a vagina that looks just like a penis - who cares?

How about if we have to put gender on things, we have space for sex and a space for gender? That way both bases are covered. Let people change the gender identity all they want, but the sex remain the same. Wouldn't that work?

This ignores those who are born intersex, for one thing. What legitimate governmental interest is served by promoting and maintaining an outmoded strictly binary classification?

[laklak]

Birth certificates are based on physiology, so there should be an "other" or "intersex" option. Gender, being a self-identified trait, would have to wait. Same with driver's licenses, passports, etc, sex is recorded for identification purposes.

[Cunt]

A few questions...

How many genders should the government recognize?

What are those genders called, and what pronouns need to be used?

Now the tricky one, how should any of these genders be treated differently by government/academia/employers?

[L'Emmerdeur]

Given that government does recognize gender, there is no good reason for it to deny recognition of transgender identities. Such recognition on the part of government will conform with reality, which I believe is generally a good thing in government. As for the general public, recognition that transgender identity is valid (as the relevant scientific studies show) will tend to diminish discrimination against and persecution of transgender individuals.

My government recognizes gender differences, and enforces compliance, so it doesn't matter what you think - you MUST respect my choice of pronouns in this country. So my pronoun is 'Massah', and you must bow your head a bit each time you use it, since the gesture is part of my pronoun choice.

What evidence can you cite in support of your assertion that your government 'enforces compliance'?

So as to how many genders, why not make a case for government knowing or using gender at all? I think the government should never be allowed to ask your gender, sexual preference, or sex. Simplifies everything and forces a bit more fair treatment of people with regards to their sex or gender.

If you want the government to use more than one gender, why? Isn't it only important between the person who chooses a gender, and a person who will be involved with them in a genital way?

I already stated my reasoning.

[Cunt]

Given that government does recognize gender, there is no good reason for it to deny recognition of transgender identities. Such recognition on the part of government will conform with reality, which I believe is generally a good thing in government. As for the general public, recognition that transgender identity is valid (as the relevant scientific studies show) will tend to diminish discrimination against and persecution of transgender individuals.

My government recognizes gender differences, and enforces compliance, so it doesn't matter what you think - you MUST respect my choice of pronouns in this country. So my pronoun is 'Massah', and you must bow your head a bit each time you use it, since the gesture is part of my pronoun choice.

What evidence can you cite in support of your assertion that your government 'enforces compliance'?

It is the law. Bill C-16 includes it in the Human Rights legislation. I don't understand how you can't see law as 'enforcing compliance'...

So as to how many genders, why not make a case for government knowing or using gender at all? I think the government should never be allowed to ask your gender, sexual preference, or sex. Simplifies everything and forces a bit more fair treatment of people with regards to their sex or gender.

If you want the government to use more than one gender, why? Isn't it only important between the person who chooses a gender, and a person who will be involved with them in a genital way?

I already stated my reasoning.

I missed it...apologies.

I still see no reason the government should be allowed to inquire as to what genitals you have, or who you do with them (criminal actions aside)

[Svartalf]

A few questions...

How many genders should the government recognize?

What are those genders called, and what pronouns need to be used?

Now the tricky one, how should any of these genders be treated differently by government/academia/employers?

There's He, there's she, and for the rest there's it, especially when talking about Cousin Itt.

[L'Emmerdeur]

What evidence can you cite in support of your assertion that your government 'enforces compliance'?

It is the law. Bill C-16 includes it in the Human Rights legislation. I don't understand how you can't see law as 'enforcing compliance'...

How has it enforced compliance? Can you cite the language in Bill C-16 that specifically enforces pronoun usage? Has anybody been prosecuted for not using a particular pronoun? I know that there have been overblown rants and unsupported claims from some individuals regarding what they view as potential effects of the bill, but beyond that hot air, nothing. Perhaps you're aware of something that I'm not.

I still see no reason the government should be allowed to inquire as to what genitals you have, or who you do with them (criminal actions aside)

The facts on the ground show that governments regularly involve themselves in such matters. Given this, I think that it is incumbent upon government to acknowledge the reality that exists, rather than constraining its citizens by dictating that they must conform to an unrealistic paradigm.

[Cunt]

What evidence can you cite in support of your assertion that your government 'enforces compliance'?

It is the law. Bill C-16 includes it in the Human Rights legislation. I don't understand how you can't see law as 'enforcing compliance'...

How has it enforced compliance? Can you cite the language in Bill C-16 that specifically enforces pronoun usage? Has anybody been prosecuted for not using a particular pronoun? I know that there have been overblown rants and unsupported claims from some individuals regarding what they view as potential effects of the bill, but beyond that hot air, nothing. Perhaps you're aware of something that I'm not.

Are you really going to pretend that this ONE law cannot be enforced?

I don't understand...isn't everything in the Human Rights legislation enforced (selectively and amusingly) by that government office?

If they aren't enforcing, what the heck are we paying them for?

I still see no reason the government should be allowed to inquire as to what genitals you have, or who you do with them (criminal actions aside)

The facts on the ground show that governments regularly involve themselves in such matters. Given this, I think that it is incumbent upon government to acknowledge the reality that exists, rather than constraining its citizens by dictating that they must conform to an unrealistic paradigm.

Speaking of 'unrealistic paradigm', how about giving us an idea of how many genders we will have to recognize in Canada, under this shiny new legislation. I can't find it anywhere, so it seems to be as many as are declared, but that can't be right...

Can it?

[pErvinalia]

But women DON'T have penises...

Transgender women can certainly have penises.

That's one view of it, which depends on one's definition of sex, gender, and whether being "transgender" means that one is actually the sex or gender to which the transition is claimed.

If we were to accept that sex is biological and gender is something a person identifies as and can change/trans to (and can even be non-binary and change back and forth), then I would say it's very easy to argue that women don't have penis and transgender women aren't biologically women.

That's a non-sequitur. The conclusion that they aren't biologically women doesn't flow from the arguments. As Brian(?) said, what's the basis for thinking that gender resides in the genitals? There's a whole other suite of biological features/systems that it could reside in.

[pErvinalia]

The sticker campaign promoted by willfully ignorant science-denying dingbats will gain supporters among the like-minded, but it's doomed to failure in the long run.

Do you have a good reason for government, or the general public, to recognize more than one gender? Or a good reason for regular people to accept, as women, people who have penises?

I just can't see how it can matter, outside of a very intimate relationship.

Given that government does recognize gender, there is no good reason for it to deny recognition of transgender identities. Such recognition on the part of government will conform with reality, which I believe is generally a good thing in government. As for the general public, recognition that transgender identity is valid (as the relevant scientific studies show) will tend to diminish discrimination against and persecution of transgender individuals.

My government recognizes gender differences, and enforces compliance, so it doesn't matter what you think - you MUST respect my choice of pronouns in this country. So my pronoun is 'Massah', and you must bow your head a bit each time you use it, since the gesture is part of my pronoun choice.

So as to how many genders, why not make a case for government knowing or using gender at all? I think the government should never be allowed to ask your gender, sexual preference, or sex. Simplifies everything and forces a bit more fair treatment of people with regards to their sex or gender.

If you want the government to use more than one gender, why? Isn't it only important between the person who chooses a gender, and a person who will be involved with them in a genital way?

When people choose to use identity politics to discriminate or persecute others, it's necessary for the government to use identities to help counter that uncivil behaviour.

[pErvinalia]

What evidence can you cite in support of your assertion that your government 'enforces compliance'?

It is the law. Bill C-16 includes it in the Human Rights legislation. I don't understand how you can't see law as 'enforcing compliance'...

How has it enforced compliance? Can you cite the language in Bill C-16 that specifically enforces pronoun usage? Has anybody been prosecuted for not using a particular pronoun? I know that there have been overblown rants and unsupported claims from some individuals regarding what they view as potential effects of the bill, but beyond that hot air, nothing. Perhaps you're aware of something that I'm not.

Are you really going to pretend that this ONE law cannot be enforced?

I don't understand...isn't everything in the Human Rights legislation enforced (selectively and amusingly) by that government office?

If they aren't enforcing, what the heck are we paying them for?

So that would be a 'no' then. The same as the last 10 times this Bill was debated here.

[laklak]

As Brian(?) said, what's the basis for thinking that gender resides in the genitals? There's a whole other suite of biological features/systems that it could reside in.

I think mine resides in me old John Thomas. Come to think of it, pretty much everything resides there.

[Cunt]

When people choose to use identity politics to discriminate or persecute others, it's necessary for the government to use identities to help counter that uncivil behaviour.

What is your position on the gender issues?

How many genders should be formally recognized by governments?