Without evil there'd be no good ...

[piscator]

it stands for the Logical Problem Of Evil, if you are not being coy
a trivial little issue i'm sure you can hand wave through in your sleep

and you might want to look up "Theodicy" when/if you can find the time, as you may find it interesting and informative, as well as illuminating...



f Mans First Disobedience, and the Fruit
Of that Forbidden Tree, whose mortal tast
Brought Death into the World, and all our woe,
With loss of EDEN, till one greater Man
Restore us, and regain the blissful Seat,
Sing Heav'nly Muse, that on the secret top
Of OREB, or of SINAI, didst inspire
That Shepherd, who first taught the chosen Seed,
In the Beginning how the Heav'ns and Earth
Rose out of CHAOS: Or if SION Hill
Delight thee more, and SILOA'S Brook that flow'd
Fast by the Oracle of God; I thence
Invoke thy aid to my adventrous Song,
That with no middle flight intends to soar
Above th' AONIAN Mount, while it pursues
Things unattempted yet in Prose or Rhime.
And chiefly Thou O Spirit, that dost prefer
Before all Temples th' upright heart and pure,
Instruct me, for Thou know'st; Thou from the first
Wast present, and with mighty wings outspread
Dove-like satst brooding on the vast Abyss
And mad'st it pregnant: What in me is dark
Illumine, what is low raise and support;
That to the highth of this great Argument
I may assert th' Eternal Providence,
And justifie the wayes of God to men.

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20

[LaMont Cranston]

piscator, All this time I was thinking it stood for something like "Last People on Earth" or "Large Pizza Over Elvis." I see that you live in the 49th state, and you are a fisherman. Interesting. Perhaps you will be a fisher of men...

Aloha from the 50th state!

[jamest]

What you refer to as "nonsense" are things that I find fascinating, exciting, interesting, powerful and wonderful.

You misunderstood me. My reference to 'nonsense' was about the responses one has to often endure in forum conversations such as this.

For the record, I think that Jesus was extremely cool, and he's taken a bad rap for what many assholes, scumbags and hypocrites have done in his name.

Yep... Jesus was and still is a hugely misunderstood character.

I also find that I find a lot to like in the so-called "new atheism."

Well, there's alot to like about scepticism... not sure about 'atheism'.

All things considered, I'm still a theist and quite happy about it. If I was an atheist, I'd find a way to be happy about that. I hope that clears things up some, but if you have more questions, I'll do the best I can to answer them. Take care...

Thankyou.

[LaMont Cranston]

piscator, OK, it's a new morning, and I'm drinking my coffee while roosters crow in the yard. Is there something you'd like to talk about regarding theodicy?

[Surendra Darathy]

piscator, OK, it's a new morning, and I'm drinking my coffee while roosters crow in the yard. Is there something you'd like to talk about regarding theodicy?

Since piscator may be off doing his thing as a fisher of men, I will join the battle as a fisher of mice.

First thing you have to decide (or deicide, if you swing that way) is whether or not theodicy is a "dead issue".

[LaMont Cranston]

Surendra, Good morning! Actually, you are many time zones away, so make that "Good morning from here..."

You bring up a good point. I do regard that theodicy thing as a dead issue. To quote you (WOW...I can't believe I'm quoting you, and I hope you're sufficiently impressed), "Existence exists." If both God and the dichotomy of "good" and "evil" exist...and I think they do...the supposed logical problem is not a problem, it's just a description of the way it is in the world. It's kind of like that thing with self-fulfilling prophecy, and it has to do with the way you frame your initial question. If you start with the idea that there's a logical problem, there's an excellent chance you will continue to wrestle with the idea that it's a logical problem. If you perceive the world from the perception that "existence exists," the problem is moot.

[Surendra Darathy]

Exactly. I can't believe I'm agreeing with you.

Well, I'm not really agreeing with you in detail, since I don't use the words "good" and "evil" except colloquially, and you are not yet using the words in a way that is interesting to anyone but you.

I think the tough thing we have to deal with, rich or poor, young or old, is anticipation of our own demise, and the persistence of memory of those we have lost to mortality. Would I call this "evil"? It seems kind of extreme. If pressed, I might claim that "banality" was "evil", but not in a theological sense. Only just very, very corny.

If some people want to make up a nice story about green pastures over on that other shore, it's their business, but only if they keep it to themselves.

How self-contained one remains about the fact of death says a lot about a person, and thereafter affects our relationships with such persons as do not contain it.

OTOH, you don't talk a lot about death, and stress the importance of our relationships while we're alive. This one may do - with or without a deity - which latter is only important if you include the additional story that this is not the end of it. By telling that one, you imply that the concept of "enough" is meaningless for you, as if a sense of having had "enough" somehow denigrated one.

If life is full, then we're sorry to part with it. If life is empty, well, we can console ourselves with the notion that it won't last long. Eternity throws a huge monkey wrench into trying to figure out how we should treat the thought of it. There being no evidence for any eternity, one treats it as a "dead issue".

[macdoc]

Once around

sums it nicely.....fucking this once up for some future unreality is seriously, seriously demented...
counselling anyone else to do so...especially kids...

[LaMont Cranston]

Surendra, I think that we need to consider certain terms. I've lived long enough to have seen family and other loved ones die, and I also know that I will experience dying. We all experience dying, whether or not we experience death is another matter. (It reminds me of a line from a classic Albert King blues song, "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.")

Back in 2002, we found that my best friend, a very wise and loving man, had inoperable pancreatic cancer. In nine months, his weight dropped from about 270 lbs. to under 150. I used to push him in his wheelchair to his chemo appts, with his wife by our side. He died that September, but I have found that the love he put into the world, and the love I've known from others, lives on in those people they have touched in their lives.

I can't say that I think that dying or death are, in and of themselves, evil. I would say that the actions we do that negatively impact ourselves and others can be considered evil. It's funny, but in all the time I've been on these fora, I've never seen anybody, but myself, take a shot at defining sin. We've all, even Jews like myself, heard that thing about how "Jesus died for our sins," but what does that really mean?

First of all, I'd say that a sin is an act (i.e. killing, stealing, lying, etc.) that does damage to ourselves or others. Whether God exists or not...and whether God judges or not...is one thing, but, the point is, we judge ourselves and live with our words and deeds. If we do something that gives us a reputation for being a liar, thief, scumbag, etc., we have done something that is against our own best interests.

So, what does it mean that "Jesus died for our sins?" I'd say the point of that story is that the J-Man picked up the tab for all of us; he paid all the bills and gave everybody an opportunity to have a fresh start. However, there's more to the story than that. The rest of it is that from that point on, we are responsible for our own actions, both the positive and the negative. It's on us what we do with that opportunity.

I also don't think that banality is evil; banality is boring, and people who are bored look around for something, anything, to do to alleviate the boredom. If we make stupid choices, we've at least done something about the boredom, and we may have done that by creating new problems for ourselves. If we make smart choices, ones that enhance our lives, we have, in some small way, uplifted our lives and the lives of others.

Yes, I don't talk much about death, but I'm aware it's out there for myself and others. I don't know any way to be alive and not be aware of death, but that doesn't mean that I dwell on it. It's there whether I dwell on it or not. In the meantime, as a rational being with what I believe to be free will (or a very good illusion of same), I have the opportunity to make those choices that will allow me to live a good life on my terms. Am I in this boat by myself? Hell, no! We're all in this thing together!

If I have somehow implied that the concept of "enough" is meaningless to me, let me correct that. I have a pretty good idea of what "enough" looks like to me. I used to go to Chinese restaurants a lot. It's not that I have anything the Chinese people or their food, but I've had "enough" of going to those restaurants.

However, there's more to life than "enough." In fact, one of the things that's "up" from "enough" is "more." As I've gotten older, I've found that there are many parts of life that are better. Music is one of those things. I don't find a lot of new music I really like, but a lot of the music I loved ten years ago (i.e. Mose, Bob Marley, Patsy Cline, Merle Haggard, Mozart and on and on), I appreciate even more now. It's like that with loving relationships; they can get much better over time.

In closing, we are the ones who get to decide for ourselves whether life is full or empty. You are correct...there being no evidence of eternity, "one" has the option of treating it as a "dead issue." In your life, you are that "one," but some of us think that it is highly probable that there are other options, including enthusiastically living the best lives we can, here and now.

I've got to tell you, I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. See you soon...

[LaMont Cranston]

macdoc, You're limiting your options. We have other possibilities available to us than "fucking this once up for some future unreality." One of those possibilities is living the best possible lives we can now. Doing that doesn't mean that we are compelled to counsel others...especially kids...to do anything.

I also might point out to you that self-proclaimed clear and rational thinkers (i.e. Richard Dawkins) have been known to make seriously, seriously demented choices. The Shadow knows...

[piscator]

piscator, All this time I was thinking it stood for something like "Last People on Earth" or "Large Pizza Over Elvis." I see that you live in the 49th state, and you are a fisherman. Interesting. Perhaps you will be a fisher of men...

Aloha from the 50th state!

thanks for the preachy invite, Rabbi Yeshua, and c'amai from the Last Frontier, but unless i hear something compelling, i'll likely remain a fisher of fish and an employer of men, as the market for men isn't what it used to be
to that end, i have a CG inspection of my vessel arranged for today and have scant time to swim around in circles scavenging for demersal tidbits, so i'll be brief

if you believe that evil exists in the Biblical sense as created by an omnimax Creator, you face the dilemma of rectifying that paradox, or quite literally subscribing to nonsensical beliefs

while i'm sure you'll take the easy way out and hold that God is under no obligation to make sense to us little guppies, that course is as circular and useful as Tom Cox's Traverse, and neglects the little issue that the Bible is supposedly God's message to mankind, to be contemplated and apprehended by men with their Godgiven rationality

Spinoza tried to fillet most of the anthropomorphic qualities from God and was left with, "...for whatever each thing does according to the laws of its own nature, it does with supreme right, because it acts as it has been determined to do according to nature, and cannot do otherwise", which you may see leaves us with the same bony pile of moral bycatch with which we started

so i can perhaps be forgiven for shoveling it over the rail, no?

[Surendra Darathy]

thanks for the preachy invite, Rabbi Yeshua, and c'amai from the Last Frontier...

that course is as circular and useful as Tom Cox's Traverse...

Or maybe, if you combine the two, it's a "lox-o-drome".

(ba-DUM tish!)

cue the rhumb-a line!

[Tigger]

thanks for the preachy invite, Rabbi Yeshua, and c'amai from the Last Frontier...

that course is as circular and useful as Tom Cox's Traverse...

Or maybe, if you combine the two, it's a "lox-o-drome".

(ba-DUM tish!)

cue the rhumb-a line!

We are well equipped here: ba-DUM tish! =

[Surendra Darathy]

We are well equipped here...

I love it. You guys have it all. Land of milk and honey. And symbols to snare me.

[piscator]

We are well equipped here...

I love it. You guys have it all. Land of milk and honey. And symbols to snare me.

don't want to beat this too hard, but SD's on a roll...