New York City is fining people for ignoring pronoun orders.

[pErvinalia]

So you mean the politically correct, cultural Marxist, regressive left feminazis aren't oppressing the poor white man?

[JimC]

As usual, Forty Two has made a PC mountain from a pretty minor molehill...

[Hermit]

As usual, Forty Two has made a PC mountain from a pretty minor molehill...

I'd call it a massively massaged message, aka a beatup of legendary proportions.

[Brian Peacock]

Could I seek damages from barely post-pubescent shop assistants who call me Granddad?

[Svartalf]

It says fines, nothing about seeking damages... I suspect that to get those, you'd have to get the kind of lawyer that will cost you more than you'd receive.

[Forty Two]

I'll see that if and when I ever go to NY

Trust me....it's coming to a jurisdiction near you, too. If you think the US is alone in this trend, you're fooling yourself.

[Forty Two]

I wonder what happens if a Spanish speaking gender fluid non-binary dipshit demands that Spanish only be spoken to "Zer" in gender neutral terms....

What if they weren't a dipshit?

Oh, so it's o.k. to misgender in Spanish? Just not in English.

[Forty Two]

I've read a story on the Washington Post site that talks about potential fines, but have yet to find anything anywhere that says that even a single fine has been levied for use of an unwanted pronoun let alone that it has been happening, as the thread title says.

"No, NYC Did Not Just Introduce A $250,000 Fine For Any Incorrect Use Of Gender Pronouns" | Gothamist

Statement from the New York Human Rights Commissioner:

Accidentally misusing a transgender person's preferred pronoun is not a violation of the law and will not result in a fine...In fact, our guidance encourages people to ask transgender and gender non-conforming individuals how they would like to be addressed. The law is meant to address situations in which individuals intentionally and repeatedly target transgender and gender non-conforming people with this type of harassment. Transgender and gender non-conforming people experience discrimination on a daily basis, from exclusion from bathrooms to verbal harassment and even violence. We issued this guidance last year so employers and individuals understand what the law says and to ensure that every transgender individual in New York City is treated with the respect and dignity they deserve.

Of course somebody could say that the thread title is "arguably true," and that's good enough for them.

It's a new ordinance/regulation, of course. The fact that they haven't enforced the ordinance doesn't make the ordinance appropriate. What if they made an ordinance that gay people couldn't show public displays of affection, but didn't yet enforce it. Would we have to withhold judgment until they enforced it?

This is a law that says that person X can control the speech of person Y and compel them to use certain words. A complaint gets filed, and then the commission holds a legal proceeding to determine whether "misuse" was accidental or whether it was on purpose? So, if I walk into work tomorrow and say that from now on I want to be called "zouzou" instead of he or him, everyone has to remember that and use it. If I switch back a week or two later, they better switch back, right? Or, they'll have to file a response to my charge of "misuse of gender pronoun."

The guidance says to ask transgendered people what they prefer. Why just transgendered people? Why not everyone? Why assume that CIS people don't want different pronouns? Trans people are about 1/2 of 1% of the population. I bet at least that percentage of CIS people would like to change pronouns too.

My preferred pronoun is "your majesty."

[Forty Two]

So you mean the politically correct, cultural Marxist, regressive left feminazis aren't oppressing the poor white man?

The reality is that the whole concept of race and sex as "classes" which oppress one another is total and complete regressive leftist horse shit. So, indeed, white people are not a class being oppressed by other races, and men aren't oppressed as a class by women. And vice versa.

Instances of illegal behavior happen and are perpetrated by individuals against individuals. Folks that oppose the regressive left douchebags aren't engaged in the "my identity group is more oppressed than your identity group." This is what regressive left dickbags don't understand. We're not in your "progressive stack." We reject the entire notion. But, they can't imagine that anyone doesn't think the way they do, so they assume that it's males claiming to be an oppressed identity group.

[Forty Two]

As usual, Forty Two has made a PC mountain from a pretty minor molehill...

By mentioning it?

New York is a major city, and they're not alone in this trend. The American Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has also moved in this direction, suggesting that failing to use a trans person's preferred pronoun can be considered sexual harassment under the US employment discrimination laws.

[pErvinalia]

I've read a story on the Washington Post site that talks about potential fines, but have yet to find anything anywhere that says that even a single fine has been levied for use of an unwanted pronoun let alone that it has been happening, as the thread title says.

"No, NYC Did Not Just Introduce A $250,000 Fine For Any Incorrect Use Of Gender Pronouns" | Gothamist

Statement from the New York Human Rights Commissioner:

Accidentally misusing a transgender person's preferred pronoun is not a violation of the law and will not result in a fine...In fact, our guidance encourages people to ask transgender and gender non-conforming individuals how they would like to be addressed. The law is meant to address situations in which individuals intentionally and repeatedly target transgender and gender non-conforming people with this type of harassment. Transgender and gender non-conforming people experience discrimination on a daily basis, from exclusion from bathrooms to verbal harassment and even violence. We issued this guidance last year so employers and individuals understand what the law says and to ensure that every transgender individual in New York City is treated with the respect and dignity they deserve.

Of course somebody could say that the thread title is "arguably true," and that's good enough for them.

It's a new ordinance/regulation, of course. The fact that they haven't enforced the ordinance doesn't make the ordinance appropriate. What if they made an ordinance that gay people couldn't show public displays of affection, but didn't yet enforce it. Would we have to withhold judgment until they enforced it?

This is a law that says that person X can control the speech of person Y and compel them to use certain words. A complaint gets filed, and then the commission holds a legal proceeding to determine whether "misuse" was accidental or whether it was on purpose? So, if I walk into work tomorrow and say that from now on I want to be called "zouzou" instead of he or him, everyone has to remember that and use it. If I switch back a week or two later, they better switch back, right? Or, they'll have to file a response to my charge of "misuse of gender pronoun."

The guidance says to ask transgendered people what they prefer. Why just transgendered people? Why not everyone? Why assume that CIS people don't want different pronouns? Trans people are about 1/2 of 1% of the population. I bet at least that percentage of CIS people would like to change pronouns too.

My preferred pronoun is "your majesty."

You really do know how to miss the point of this sort of thing. I'm not necessarily saying it is right, but the reasoning is clear here. This is about purposeful hate speech. It might be a very weak kind of hate speech, but it's clearly not supposed to be about any individual demanding to be called any title they want. It's about gender appropriate terms for those who often face bigotry in society.

[Forty Two]

As usual, Forty Two has made a PC mountain from a pretty minor molehill...

I'd call it a massively massaged message, aka a beatup of legendary proportions.

Interesting allegation. How so? What's massaged about it? Is it expected that NYC's human rights commission will take it upon itself not to issue fines in accordance with the law? They'll just ignore it with a wink?

[Forty Two]

You really do know how to miss the point of this sort of thing. I'm not necessarily saying it is right, but the reasoning is clear here. This is about purposeful hate speech. It might be a very weak kind of hate speech, but it's clearly not supposed to be about any individual demanding to be called any title they want. It's about gender appropriate terms for those who often face bigotry in society.

We never had a law that made it a punishable offense to call women Miss instead of Ms. or Ms. instead of Mrs. This rule imposes tremendous fines for doing just that. And, their "guidance" makes it worse -- everyone now has to take steps to determine what other people's "preferred pronouns" are, and we all have to bother about what each individual wants to be called.

It's not enough that they can file a complaint if conduct rises to the level of harassment - such as purposeful, repeated namecalling other badgering -- now, there is a specific rule that compels people to use words at the directive, behest and order of another person. If the rule is to be imposed fairly, then you and I can also choose pronouns and order other people to use them. Or, is the law not going to be imposed fairly? It only protects stereotypical trans people, and not trans people who don't actually try to follow the stereotype of the sex opposite to that of their birth?

[Forty Two]

It says fines, nothing about seeking damages... I suspect that to get those, you'd have to get the kind of lawyer that will cost you more than you'd receive.

Negative - first, in the employment setting, a complaint can be filed with the EEOC or any of the 50 US state equivalent agencies, at no charge, and the government investigates the matter.

Lawyers take discrimination cases on a contingency, too, and if you do want to go to court, there are plenty of lawyers to take your case with no up-front money from the client. They take a percentage.

[pErvinalia]

You really do know how to miss the point of this sort of thing. I'm not necessarily saying it is right, but the reasoning is clear here. This is about purposeful hate speech. It might be a very weak kind of hate speech, but it's clearly not supposed to be about any individual demanding to be called any title they want. It's about gender appropriate terms for those who often face bigotry in society.

We never had a law that made it a punishable offense to call women Miss instead of Ms. or Ms. instead of Mrs. This rule imposes tremendous fines for doing just that. And, their "guidance" makes it worse -- everyone now has to take steps to determine what other people's "preferred pronouns" are, and we all have to bother about what each individual wants to be called.

It's not enough that they can file a complaint if conduct rises to the level of harassment - such as purposeful, repeated namecalling other badgering -- now, there is a specific rule that compels people to use words at the directive, behest and order of another person. If the rule is to be imposed fairly, then you and I can also choose pronouns and order other people to use them. Or, is the law not going to be imposed fairly? It only protects stereotypical trans people, and not trans people who don't actually try to follow the stereotype of the sex opposite to that of their birth?

The law clearly isn't meant to address random people wanting to be called random titles. As I (and the summary L'emmedeur posted) said, this is about protected marginalised members of society.