Torture? Is it sometimes the right thing?

[mistermack]

My argument against torture is exactly the same as the argument against the death penalty, and lots of other things.

Innocent people will and DO end up being tortured.
If it was possible to determine with absolute accuracy that the person actually deserved it, than I would say go ahead, and torture the fucker. I really wouldn't care if it produced good or bad information.

But as long as it's even remotely possible that the wrong person gets tortured, then you have to ban it for everyone.

In any case, what's deserving of torture to one person, deserves a medal to someone else.

If Hitler had won the war, the commandant of the concentration camp would deserve a medal, and Schindler would deserve to be tortured. It all depends whose side you are on.
Not a fit basis for deciding on torture.

[pErvinalia]

Have you guys seen a really good movie that stars Martin Sheen and Samuel L Jackson about torture? Really good exploration of the issues, and a good bloody thriller to boot too!

[pErvinalia]

Sorry, forgot to add I can't remember what it is called.

[Hermit]

Unthinkable. Never even heard of it, but found the title of the film in under ten seconds by copypasting Martin Sheen and Samuel L Jackson into google.

I'll keep an eye out for it.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, I could have done that too, but couldn't be arsed. No one (other than you it seems) really gives a shit about anything on this forum anymore. I make the most minimal effort, if any at all.

[Hermit]

In the same post you say that you couldn't be arsed to do a simple search and complain that no one really gives a shit about anything on this forum any more?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

In the same post you say that you couldn't be arsed to do a simple search and complain that no one really gives a shit about anything on this forum any more?

Do you think he gives a shit about your logic?

[cronus]

In the same post you say that you couldn't be arsed to do a simple search and complain that no one really gives a shit about anything on this forum any more?

Do you think he gives a shit about your logic?

No one does logic these days. The machine does logic. The human is out the loop.

[JimC]

Is the likely fact that torture does not produce useful information a valid ethical argument against its use?

Is the likely fact that rape does not produce cared for offspring a valid ethical argument against its use?

The point I was trying to make is that most of the discussion here and in the media has revolved around a pragmatic argument, that torture does not work effectively (which is probably true in most cases...), and so should not be used.

However, this is not an argument from ethics. What if a particular form of torture (perhaps involving drugs or brain scans) was perfected, so that it did mostly produce valid information, but still fucked people up badly in the process? If the pragmatic argument no longer applied, would people's attitudes change?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Is the likely fact that torture does not produce useful information a valid ethical argument against its use?

Is the likely fact that rape does not produce cared for offspring a valid ethical argument against its use?

The point I was trying to make is that most of the discussion here and in the media has revolved around a pragmatic argument, that torture does not work effectively (which is probably true in most cases...), and so should not be used.

However, this is not an argument from ethics. What if a particular form of torture (perhaps involving drugs or brain scans) was perfected, so that it did mostly produce valid information, but still fucked people up badly in the process? If the pragmatic argument no longer applied, would people's attitudes change?

Claims of efficacy and "greater good" have been used to justify torture for centuries. The pragmatic argument removes this prop and exposes torture for what it basically is - punishment and revenge. Once you recognise that the answers you get from torture are neither more nor less reliable than those gleaned from sitting the person down and chatting over a nice cup of tea, then we can talk morality...

[pErvinalia]

In the same post you say that you couldn't be arsed to do a simple search and complain that no one really gives a shit about anything on this forum any more?

Do you think he gives a shit about your logic?

Exactly! And it's faulty logic anyway. The reason I don't give a shit is that others didn't give a shit first. Not the other way around.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

In the same post you say that you couldn't be arsed to do a simple search and complain that no one really gives a shit about anything on this forum any more?

Do you think he gives a shit about your logic?

Exactly! And it's faulty logic anyway. The reason I don't give a shit is that others didn't give a shit first. Not the other way around.

I think you have seriously underestimated exactly how much of a shit I don't give.

[pErvinalia]

I don't don't don't give a shit!

[piscator]

You don't have to torture people in everyday life. And even when you do, you can skip most of the dicking around by making an example of the bravest of the bunch.
I learned this running a million-dollar corporation.

[JimC]

I torture my students by telling them lame jokes. The groans are heartfelt..,.