Suicide intervention discussion

[Trolldor]

Fucking hell, an impulse suicide? Are you serious? You honestly think most suicides are because somebody has a bad day?

Who said anything about a day? You're talking about SUICIDE!! It's an impulse decision if you do it after a bad MONTH!! I would say it's too hasty, if you do it after a bad YEAR!!
But it's definitely an impulse decision if you do it while drunk, or coming down off drugs, or after being dumped, or being told you can't have the money to buy a car, etc etc etc.
Impulse suicide isn't like an impulse buy of a T shirt. It's the biggest decision of your life, so a different definition of impulse applies. Why is that so hard to work out for yourself?
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I'd suggest you get off your ask and do a little more any research on the matter.

[maiforpeace]

I've made it clear time and time again that, in my opinion, there ARE a minority of suicides that are not impulse, that are not stupid, who's motives one could respect. I think that they are a tiny minority, and that the majority are more what I depicted.
Now let's see if YOU can face reality. What proportion ( if any ) do YOU think are impulse suicides, done while drunk, or coming down from drugs, or following a lover's tiff, or done to "teach" their parents, etc. etc. etc.
Let's just see if YOU are living in the real world.
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While I appreciate your argument, there is evidence both for and against whether or not removing the means to commit suicide will actually reduce the number of suicides.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magaz ... ted=1&_r=1

So, let's say they don't succeed - do they get less respect because you deemed it to be impulsive? And, do you think it matters to the dead person, or the one who survived the suicide, for that matter whether you respected their suicide or not?

90% or more of suicides are due to some form of mental disorder or illness - alcohol induced, a spat with a lover - whether or not it was impulsive is immaterial to dealing with the problem. So, let's say you manage to prevent the suicide - how helpful is that if they don't get the treatment or help they need after?

Preventing suicide doesn't reduce the pain, physical or emotional, that caused them to consider it in the first place. You cannot decide what is bearable, or unbearable pain for another person, only for yourself.

[mistermack]

While I appreciate your argument, there is evidence both for and against whether or not removing the means to commit suicide will actually reduce the number of suicides.

Well, there are millions of people alive today who have attempted suicide in the past. Wikipedia says there are a million suicides a year, and 10 - 20 million attempts.
So there are millions of people walking about who were prevented in some way, either physically restrained, or saved medically, who haven't gone on to finish the job later.
I would say that their existence justifies all the things I've said, and what we do to prevent suicide. I put their interests ahead of those who do die, because THEY don't matter once they are dead.

So, let's say they don't succeed - do they get less respect because you deemed it to be impulsive? And, do you think it matters to the dead person, or the one who survived the suicide, for that matter whether you respected their suicide or not?

I've said a few times that my respect doesn't matter in the slightest. I'm only answering others, who seem to think it does.
When it comes to respect, it's the decision and action that I don't respect. I don't know the people, how can I have any opinion on them?
I know people who I respect very much, who have done some really stupid things. I have myself, we all do. So what? There's always another day. ( for some of us ).

90% or more of suicides are due to some form of mental disorder or illness - alcohol induced, a spat with a lover - whether or not it was impulsive is immaterial to dealing with the problem. So, let's say you manage to prevent the suicide - how helpful is that if they don't get the treatment or help they need after?

The figures speak for themselves. Ten to twenty million suicide attempts, only one million suicides. The huge majority do not go on to finish the job. They get through it somehow.
And it's not surprising that most are put down to some kind of mental disorder. Most psychiatrists would have us all labelled with something, and with hindsight of a suicide, it's all too easy. And the family would rather it read that way anyway.
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[Feck]

How many suicide attempts were meant to be attempts ? Are you saying that information on reliable methods would mean all these people would be dead ?
Most attempts are acts of desperation or attention seeking .The basis for labelling suicides as stupid dummies is unfair . It's my life I had no choice about how I was born If I choose to make the choice about ending it then FUCK anybody who says I shouldn't be allowed .To say all the information on reliable methods should be hidden so that i use a painful and possibly ineffective method because that will stop me is a horrible idea .Whose approval should I seek before I am allowed to go ? Would you suggest that someone else should decide I have had enough suffering and kill me if I was terminally ill, against my wishes?
But you ARE saying that my life belongs to any other person who thinks I have to live because of their feelings.

This seems based on the religious attitude and it seems that humanism has embraced it .
Just because you are enjoying your life Don't tell me I'm enjoying mine or I should be enjoying mine or that I should carry on regardless.

[mistermack]

How many suicide attempts were meant to be attempts ?

I don't know. That's just a wikipedia stat. Nobody could possibly answer that. But it does prove that there are a huge number of people out there who think on the day that life is unbearable, when it isn't. Otherwise they would ALL have gone on to complete the job.

Most attempts are acts of desperation or attention seeking .

I think so. But desparation doesn't usually last, a few weeks on, it can be a distant memory.
And how many who are just attention seeking actually die? Maybe they miscalculate how many pills would kill you, or that someone would find them who doesn't turn up? It works both ways.

The basis for labelling suicides as stupid dummies is unfair .

I clearly said it's the act that I find stupid. We all do stupid things, that doesn't make us stupid dummies for life. But if the last thing you do is incredibly stupid, then the label is going to stick.

It's my life I had no choice about how I was born If I choose to make the choice about ending it then FUCK anybody who says I shouldn't be allowed .

Personally I would say it was worthwhile, if you stopped 100 suicide attempts, if just ONE decided to give it another go. Why, because the 99 dead ones have no value, or rights. If they were inconvenienced, fuck em. We still gave one a life. The 99 dead ones, I really wouldn't put any value on them, or care how they went. That's what it means to be dead. You don't exist.

To say all the information on reliable methods should be hidden so that i use a painful and possibly ineffective method because that will stop me is a horrible idea .Whose approval should I seek before I am allowed to go ? Would you suggest that someone else should decide I have had enough suffering and kill me if I was terminally ill, against my wishes?
But you ARE saying that my life belongs to any other person who thinks I have to live because of their feelings.

No, I'm saying yet again that the ones who are saved from suicide make it worth inconveniencing the ones who are really determined. You simply can't have both. I choose for the living. If you happen to choose a painful and ineffective way, so what? At the end of the day, it's your own action, and if you're successful, what does a few hours pain matter to anyone? You no longer exist.

This seems based on the religious attitude and it seems that humanism has embraced it .
Just because you are enjoying your life Don't tell me I'm enjoying mine or I should be enjoying mine or that I should carry on regardless.

Well, just like the pope, I'm against murder. That doesn't make me a catholic. You don't have to be religious to think how I do, that is the one thing I can personally guarantee is true.
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[maiforpeace]

While I appreciate your argument, there is evidence both for and against whether or not removing the means to commit suicide will actually reduce the number of suicides.

Well, there are millions of people alive today who have attempted suicide in the past. Wikipedia says there are a million suicides a year, and 10 - 20 million attempts.
So there are millions of people walking about who were prevented in some way, either physically restrained, or saved medically, who haven't gone on to finish the job later.
I would say that their existence justifies all the things I've said, and what we do to prevent suicide. I put their interests ahead of those who do die, because THEY don't matter once they are dead.

Did you read the article I posted?

This seems based on the religious attitude and it seems that humanism has embraced it .

I don't think Humanism has embraced this - I would venture to guess that it's a pretty controversial subject with Humanists, it most definitely is with Ethical Culturists. One of the most heated discussions I have gotten into with others, was based on a chapter in "Ethics for Everyone" titled "Is it Moral of Me to Assist Someone to Commit Suicide?"



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[Cunt]

I've made it clear time and time again that, in my opinion, there ARE a minority of suicides that are not impulse, that are not stupid, who's motives one could respect. I think that they are a tiny minority, and that the majority are more what I depicted.
Now let's see if YOU can face reality. What proportion ( if any ) do YOU think are impulse suicides, done while drunk, or coming down from drugs, or following a lover's tiff, or done to "teach" their parents, etc. etc. etc.
Let's just see if YOU are living in the real world.
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Since I don't like to pass judgement on strangers, I will have to limit my report to personal experience.

I think none are. All are carefully considered, thoughtful decisions.

As to those strangers you elect to pass your (foul, insulting) judgement on, I will not judge.

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How the fuck could you know he was an idiot?

Because he had drunk a vast quantity of Vodka. I know that I and most people would be an idiot after that much vodka, and his jumping just confirms it.
You seem to be having trouble with the bleeding obvious on this thread.

Perhaps you should go where people have imbibed vast quantities of vodka and tell them they are idiots.

It might help your understanding.

And trying to somehow equate suicide with risky sport is ludicrous.
Climb a mountain, and you spend all you time trying NOT to fall. If that's the best you can offer, you've got nothing.
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Fromhere...

WASHINGTON – An Army report on the record number of soldier suicides says the trend reflects a rise in risky behavior including drunken driving and drug abuse in a military stretched to the breaking point by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Ludicrous? Is that the word you use when you don't understand something?

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You cannot decide what is bearable, or unbearable pain for another person, only for yourself.

Exactly. I think a respect for people is important, even if they ARE quite different from you.

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I don't know the people, how can I have any opinion on them?

You can respect people a certain amount just because they are people.

I can't believe I have to lay this out for you. Are you making fun of me?

And it's not surprising that most are put down to some kind of mental disorder. Most psychiatrists would have us all labelled with something, and with hindsight of a suicide, it's all too easy. And the family would rather it read that way anyway.
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All broad generalizations are boasts of ignorance. (except the ones you espouse, right?)

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How many suicide attempts were meant to be attempts ? Are you saying that information on reliable methods would mean all these people would be dead ?
Most attempts are acts of desperation or attention seeking .The basis for labelling suicides as stupid dummies is unfair . It's my life I had no choice about how I was born If I choose to make the choice about ending it then FUCK anybody who says I shouldn't be allowed .To say all the information on reliable methods should be hidden so that i use a painful and possibly ineffective method because that will stop me is a horrible idea .Whose approval should I seek before I am allowed to go ? Would you suggest that someone else should decide I have had enough suffering and kill me if I was terminally ill, against my wishes?
But you ARE saying that my life belongs to any other person who thinks I have to live because of their feelings.

This seems based on the religious attitude and it seems that humanism has embraced it .
Just because you are enjoying your life Don't tell me I'm enjoying mine or I should be enjoying mine or that I should carry on regardless.

Well said, Feck.

In the real world, everyone has the right to die. There is almost nothing anyone can do to take it away from you. Because of this I try to not be disrespectful of those who have exercised that right, and it gives more reason to celebrate those who do carry on.

If everyone were shamed into going on living, there would be no sense of accomplishment for those who decide to go on in the face of pain.

[mistermack]

Did you read the article I posted?

Confession time. I read the first page (nearly), and got distracted just before the bottom of the page, so I never noticed it was over six pages. It's an excellent article, the first page is a bit dull, but the rest is spot-on, and very illuminating.
I think everyone should read it, so I'm posting the link again. Don't do what I did, read the whole thing, it tells it like it is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magaz ... ted=1&_r=1

Cunt, you especially should read it all. It might shake you out of that dream-world you seem to inhabit, where nobody commits suicide on impulse.
Ridiculous!!
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[Cunt]

Did you read the article I posted?

Confession time. I read the first page (nearly), and got distracted just before the bottom of the page, so I never noticed it was over six pages. It's an excellent article, the first page is a bit dull, but the rest is spot-on, and very illuminating.
I think everyone should read it, so I'm posting the link again. Don't do what I did, read the whole thing, it tells it like it is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magaz ... ted=1&_r=1

Cunt, you especially should read it all. It might shake you out of that dream-world you seem to inhabit, where nobody commits suicide on impulse.
Ridiculous!!
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Can you find a place where I said no-one does? Or are you trying to put words in my mouth for some reason?

I have been talking about respect for people here, mainly. Please read what I wrote, not what you wish I wrote.

[mistermack]

[Can you find a place where I said no-one does? Or are you trying to put words in my mouth for some reason?

I have been talking about respect for people here, mainly. Please read what I wrote, not what you wish I wrote.

Well, you've take my breath away. Doesn't your memory go back as far as ONE POST, where you wrote :

I think none are. All are carefully considered, thoughtful decisions.

I think you must be on a different planet.
I'm giving up on you. You don't even undersand what you write yourself.
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[Cunt]

[Can you find a place where I said no-one does? Or are you trying to put words in my mouth for some reason?

I have been talking about respect for people here, mainly. Please read what I wrote, not what you wish I wrote.

Well, you've take my breath away. Doesn't your memory go back as far as ONE POST, where you wrote :

I think none are. All are carefully considered, thoughtful decisions.

I think you must be on a different planet.
I'm giving up on you. You don't even undersand what you write yourself.
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You are doing what is called 'quote-mining' here, unless of course you just misread what I wrote. Let's look at more of the quote, shall we?

Since I don't like to pass judgement on strangers, I will have to limit my report to personal experience.

I think none are. All are carefully considered, thoughtful decisions.

(I bolded the important bit which you ignored)

The people I knew who have suicided have not been 'impulse decisions'. None of them.

As to others, I declined to pass judgement. Read more carefully, would you?

[mistermack]

Cunt, I didn't ask you about people you "know", or say you knew. If you have to answer a different question, in order to give the answer you want to write, you're just as do-dally as the cunt who can't remember.
Either way, there's no point in continuing.
Bye.
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[Cunt]

Cunt, I didn't ask you about people you "know", or say you knew. If you have to answer a different question, in order to give the answer you want to write, you're just as do-dally as the cunt who can't remember.
Either way, there's no point in continuing.
Bye.
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I did answer your question. In the same post, actually. Did you read this part:

As to those strangers you elect to pass your (foul, insulting) judgement on, I will not judge.

I won't be judgemental. Do you want me to say how many were 'impulse' suicides? It is going to take me an awfully long time to get there. I would have to know what qualified as 'impulse', then find a way to measure those qualities and likely hire a statistician to help collect and understand the data.

The way you were using it was not in any clear kind of way, it was simply a way of being insulting (effectively) all the members of a group you don't agree with.

Sorry you can't seem to respect people's freedom of choice. I hope you get over it.

[camoguard]

Weighing in: I think suicide is an acceptable choice that a person has as a point of honor. Surely, it is selfish but because it is selfish does not make it wrong. Since life is the only existence we get, if we wrote a strategy guide, we would all save suicide as a last resort for escaping intolerable circumstances. I do not want people who do not want to live. They fuck the game of life up, quite frankly. That being said, I'm for working with people while they are still alive. But in the end, it's their life, I see no reason to keep it going against their will. I gain nothing for it.

That being said, trying to interpret why suicides are prevalent and trying to create changes by which fewer people do commit suicide is a worthy task. Debugging life is always acceptable.

[SpeedOfSound]

The subject is suicide being noble?

I think it can be. It can also be a rational choice at times or at least seem so rational that I wouldn't judge anyone for doing it. I have a friend who is likely to kill himself in the next few weeks. He has himself boxed in so bad that his situation leaves everyone speechless.

We'll see how I feel if he actually does it. Unfortunately he has expressed and interest and a plan to steal my 45 to get the job done with.