What value is in liberal arts education?

[Coito ergo sum]

Liberal arts degrees are great, but they aren't what businesses are generally looking for.

and for evidence of that you have ???

I run a tech business.....tech graduates can't communicate worth shit.....liberal arts grads communicate better and have a more flexible range of skills to offer.

You hire history majors to code, do you?

[Cormac]

Businesses relying on economists, physicists, business majors, and hardcore tech or ran us into this current crisis.

The absence of an understanding of the logical fallacies and some disciplines of critical thinking in business is a huge problem.

I'm not following - are you suggesting that if businesses make economic projections based on an English major's or a Historian's work, that it would be more likely to achieve a positive outcome than if based on an Economist's work?

I think he harkening back to the lack of diversity in certain fields of education. The Hard Sciences tend to hyperfocus on their specialties to the detriment of the big picture, and this results in them forgetting to ask "Is this a good idea?"

Well, take the banking sector. Since the 1980s, they have been hiring physicists, mathematicians, and economists to run their risk "management" departments. Not only that, but banking regulations have been entirely designed by the same group of people. Somewhere along the line, the mathematicians and physicists forgot their scientific sense, and economists done have one - but the result was an industry wide reliance on completely groundless beliefs about the applicability of the bell curve to the real world. This led directly to the current global crisis. In fact, banking continues to rely on the same nonsensical belief. Oddly enough, it happens to work very well with a business model that can produce vast short term profits and therefore big salaries and bonuses for dunderheads who mistake a lucky streak for business acumen.

My main work is in designing efficient organisations, and I see that the same belief in hard certainties is endemic, and a major cause of inefficiency. My observation is that IT folks, accountants, lawyers, and engineers tend to believe in certainties more than others.

I'm currently working with a department of actuaries, and they're cocksure of their own brilliance and brimming with certainties - many of which are simply ungrounded assertions and are features of their own particula groupthink.

Liberal Arts grads might be probe to the odd bit of magical thinking, but if they've studied philosophy they might be acquainted with the logical fallacies at least.

[Cormac]

Liberal arts degrees are great, but they aren't what businesses are generally looking for.

and for evidence of that you have ???

I run a tech business.....tech graduates can't communicate worth shit.....liberal arts grads communicate better and have a more flexible range of skills to offer.

You hire history majors to code, do you?

When I was hired as a programmer/systems analyst, I had a BA in English and Classical Civilisation, and a Postgrad in Business Studies, and about 2.5 years of work as an Industrial Relations negotiator.

[Azathoth]

Well, take the banking sector. Since the 1980s, they have been hiring physicists, mathematicians, and economists to run their risk "management" departments. Not only that, but banking regulations have been entirely designed by the same group of people. Somewhere along the line, the mathematicians and physicists forgot their scientific sense, and economists done have one - but the result was an industry wide reliance on completely groundless beliefs about the applicability of the bell curve to the real world. This led directly to the current global crisis. In fact, banking continues to rely on the same nonsensical belief. Oddly enough, it happens to work very well with a business model that can produce vast short term profits and therefore big salaries and bonuses for dunderheads who mistake a lucky streak for business acumen.

You are conflating greed with stupidity. If you think that the way banks are operating is accidental you are stupider than you think they are. Of course they know what happens when they get told to stop creatiing imaginary money and pay some of their debts with their actual capital but they have their own not so little nest eggs tied down and hidden thank you very much. They couldn't give a flying fuck about joe bloggs losing his business and house

[Cormac]

Well, take the banking sector. Since the 1980s, they have been hiring physicists, mathematicians, and economists to run their risk "management" departments. Not only that, but banking regulations have been entirely designed by the same group of people. Somewhere along the line, the mathematicians and physicists forgot their scientific sense, and economists done have one - but the result was an industry wide reliance on completely groundless beliefs about the applicability of the bell curve to the real world. This led directly to the current global crisis. In fact, banking continues to rely on the same nonsensical belief. Oddly enough, it happens to work very well with a business model that can produce vast short term profits and therefore big salaries and bonuses for dunderheads who mistake a lucky streak for business acumen.

You are conflating greed with stupidity. If you think that the way banks are operating is accidental you are stupider than you think they are. Of course they know what happens when they get told to stop creatiing imaginary money and pay some of their debts with their actual capital but they have their own not so little nest eggs tied down and hidden thank you very much. They couldn't give a flying fuck about joe bloggs losing his business and house

I never said they give a flying fuck about anyone.

I am criticising the fact that the VAR and RWA formulae at the heart of "risk management" (a nonsensical concept anyway) are completely useless, and are yet used to allow banks to reduce their risk capital to tiny percentaes of the amounts loaned.

This has come to pass because the blinkers worn by economists, mathematicians, and physicists hired by banks matched the greed, and created a toxic situation.

[FBM]

I don't know if I can claim to be happier because I continually dwell on the big questions. I am unhappy that I can only bring to the challenge my meager smarts.

I can say positively I think, that I'm never bored.

[Tero]

You get some kind of life skills, going to college. You could write stuff. Here is my graduation speech:

It's unlikely you will hear me giving a graduation speech. I'm going to give one anyway.

I heard one from a college president. He implied that you have learned skills and you can apply them to anything. As a scientist, I have to add one thing. Use pen and paper to make decisions. That may not sound modern, so you can look up Game Theory if you need theoretical back ground and want to make this a cool thing.

But the point is to record your thoughts on paper. Make tables or flow charts or maps. Write inside boxes. The most obvious answer may not be correct, it may come from the reptilian brain. So the choices will look more realistic if you write them down. You may signing a lease, renting a home and looking for a location, traveling. Write it down. Our brains are prettys stupid and make quick decsions when they have to. But the visual cues put it in your human part of the brain. Look up Monty Hall Problem in Wikipedia and see an example of how brilliant minds are still thinking with their reptilian brain.

That is all.

Here is the monty hall problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_hall_problem
I don't always remember the explanation. But when I remember I have to draw out the options, I can explain it anytime. Some other dilemmas require writing stuff on index cards and moving the cards around.

[Mick]

I think it has made my life more interesting, but majoring in a liberal art (Philosophy) has certainly limited my employability. I ran across the idea that many universities are considering downsizing or even eliminating their liberal arts courses and majors in favor of things like business, law, science and technology programs because of the relative unemployability of liberal arts grads. Would we be better or at least just as well off if we just learned about literature, arts, philosophy, history, etc, informally? In our spare time?

A liberal education is supposed to teach you how to think, write and argue (orally or in text), it gives you the means to make sense of the world, engage it, and most importantly, it gives you the means to live well.

When we treat philosophy as if it were nothing more than solving navel gazing problems, paradoxes and epistemic skepticism, we eliminate the importance the Greeks took it to have, that it was necessary for the good life.

[MrJonno]

The ability to bullshit people (ie sell things) is a more valuable skill than the ability to make it in the first place.

I'm a techie and I realise that, the ability to sell/bullshit is also a lot harder to actually teach (I'm not sure doing liberal arts really teaches it but someone who has that ability already may be more likely to take those courses). When I do something at work I tend to think in terms of 'will it work, will it achieve the objective', when what is really important is will it impress people to give you their money (even if it doesnt work), will it influence people to make the 'right' profit making decision

Someone who has the ability to go into a nightclub, point at a random woman and chat up her and take home (without force) for a one night stand has some very valuable transferable skills (that I don't have).

I personally would support teaching boys at school from 12 onwards how to pull girls (ie how to communicate /manipulate) , sod this abstinence bullshit. Some kids really need lessons like this it would improve their happiness and improve the economy

[JimC]

Pardon me, Jonno, but your cynicism is showing. Adjust your trousers, and all will be well...

[Beatsong]

There Ain't No Trousers Wide Enough to contain jonno's cynicism.

[MrJonno]

There Ain't No Trousers Wide Enough to contain jonno's cynicism.

It's not about cynicism, I actually admire bullshitters while some people may think i spew quite a bit there are true masters that I could never be.

It's the bullshitters that change the world, sure they may not have the technical skills but they get those who do to get up and do it.

I've seen salesmen in action, while I could probably train them to be a IT techie I don't think they could train me to be a good salesman . Well not without causing serious emotional and mental trauma by forcing me to basically become someone else I would rather not be

[laklak]

I can always spot a liberal arts major, they say "would you care for some pommes frites with your lunch order?" instead of "jwant fries widat?"

[FBM]