What value is in liberal arts education?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Businesses relying on economists, physicists, business majors, and hardcore tech or ran us into this current crisis.

The absence of an understanding of the logical fallacies and some disciplines of critical thinking in business is a huge problem.

I'm not following - are you suggesting that if businesses make economic projections based on an English major's or a Historian's work, that it would be more likely to achieve a positive outcome than if based on an Economist's work?

I think he harkening back to the lack of diversity in certain fields of education. The Hard Sciences tend to hyperfocus on their specialties to the detriment of the big picture, and this results in them forgetting to ask "Is this a good idea?"

[FBM]

I think he's talking about the perils of a technocracy.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think he's talking about the perils of a technocracy.

Dove-tailed.

[Coito ergo sum]

Businesses relying on economists, physicists, business majors, and hardcore tech or ran us into this current crisis.

The absence of an understanding of the logical fallacies and some disciplines of critical thinking in business is a huge problem.

I'm not following - are you suggesting that if businesses make economic projections based on an English major's or a Historian's work, that it would be more likely to achieve a positive outcome than if based on an Economist's work?

I think he harkening back to the lack of diversity in certain fields of education. The Hard Sciences tend to hyperfocus on their specialties to the detriment of the big picture, and this results in them forgetting to ask "Is this a good idea?"

Perhaps, if one assumes that by taking liberal arts courses a person becomes more likely to ask that question.

From my experience with liberal arts majors, they aren't generally asking themselves "the big questions."

I think the liberal arts are awesome, and a good education in the liberal arts can be beneficial throughout a person's life. However, the liberal arts programs in American colleges have been watered down to 12 to 15 credits of easy courses. It's sad to see its demise.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

From my experience with liberal arts majors, they aren't generally asking themselves "the big questions."

Really? Vast experience, eh?

[Coito ergo sum]

From my experience with liberal arts majors, they aren't generally asking themselves "the big questions."

Really? Vast experience, eh?

At least as much as anyone who has lived as long as I have, and spent as much time in colleges and universities as I have (which is far more than average).

[FBM]

...From my experience with liberal arts majors, they aren't generally asking themselves "the big questions."

Some are. But I think it's the minority in any field who ask the big questions. Physics, medicine, engineering, etc, included. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I think the liberal arts are awesome, and a good education in the liberal arts can be beneficial throughout a person's life. However, the liberal arts programs in American colleges have been watered down to 12 to 15 credits of easy courses. It's sad to see its demise.

This is probably true. I'd have to have more experience with a wider range of programs to say this categorically, however. I'm wary of what might be nostalgia for "the good ol' days."

[Coito ergo sum]

...From my experience with liberal arts majors, they aren't generally asking themselves "the big questions."

Some are. But I think it's the minority in any field who ask the big questions. Physics, medicine, engineering, etc, included. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Very true. But, the point was advanced that we'd get more questions like "...is this a good idea?" asked if we had business decisions made by liberal arts majors. I don't think that's at all the clear.

I think the liberal arts are awesome, and a good education in the liberal arts can be beneficial throughout a person's life. However, the liberal arts programs in American colleges have been watered down to 12 to 15 credits of easy courses. It's sad to see its demise.

This is probably true. I'd have to have more experience with a wider range of programs to say this categorically, however. I'm wary of what might be nostalgia for "the good ol' days."

Yeah -- I hesitate to "harken back" and such. But, in this case, I think college really was more demanding "back in the day."

[FBM]

...From my experience with liberal arts majors, they aren't generally asking themselves "the big questions."

Some are. But I think it's the minority in any field who ask the big questions. Physics, medicine, engineering, etc, included. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Very true. But, the point was advanced that we'd get more questions like "...is this a good idea?" asked if we had business decisions made by liberal arts majors. I don't think that's at all the clear.

I guess it depends on why the question "Is this a good idea?" was asked. That can be asked for either technical, economic or ethical reasons. Anyway, I didn't front that idea, so I'm clean on that one.

I think the liberal arts are awesome, and a good education in the liberal arts can be beneficial throughout a person's life. However, the liberal arts programs in American colleges have been watered down to 12 to 15 credits of easy courses. It's sad to see its demise.

This is probably true. I'd have to have more experience with a wider range of programs to say this categorically, however. I'm wary of what might be nostalgia for "the good ol' days."

Yeah -- I hesitate to "harken back" and such. But, in this case, I think college really was more demanding "back in the day."[/quote]

I think we've had rote memorization without deep understanding for centuries. I have a friend (atheist) who's a very old man who can quote Latin phrases, Victorian poetry and literature passages, Thoreau, etc, in his 90's. Mortimer J. Adler is one of his ancestors. Or Felix Adler. I always forget. Anyway, a retired MD. However, he's one of the shallowest people I know. He fell into the trap that money = success = happiness. He never really understood the, for example, Thoreau he has been quoting all these decades. He has ulcers because of his worries about money, even though he has millions and not the first financial worry in the world. He disdains Philosophy as useless, but only because he stubbornly insists that the game is all about money. When I talk to him about happiness, quality of life, life satisfaction, he admits that he's given up on being happy. He's extraordinarily rich and "well educated", but I wouldn't want to be him. As much as I love him as a friend, he's a well-educated dumbass who never saw what was put in his face over and over again.

[Sean Hayden]

I don't know if I can claim to be happier because I continually dwell on the big questions. I am unhappy that I can only bring to the challenge my meager smarts.

I can say positively I think, that I'm never bored.

[laklak]

Depends on the definition of "liberal arts", I imagine. A degree in Medieval Lute Folk Songs isn't going to get you much. I'll admit to a certain bias, being the product of a rather more technical education (civil engineering and computer science), and also because we live next door to a liberal arts university. The majority of students there can't find their own asses with a roadmap and MapQuest.

[Coito ergo sum]

Depends on the definition of "liberal arts", I imagine. A degree in Medieval Lute Folk Songs isn't going to get you much. I'll admit to a certain bias, being the product of a rather more technical education (civil engineering and computer science), and also because we live next door to a liberal arts university. The majority of students there can't find their own asses with a roadmap and MapQuest.

Except, that someone made a fortune as "master of the Pan flute..." so -- anything is possible. One might take that degree in medieval lute folk songs and create a heavy metal fusion band to reinvent medieval lute playing, or something.

It is, of course, not something that mainstream banks, auto companies, computer companies, industrial sales folks, insurance companies and the like are looking for in new employees. But, being valuable to a mainstream business organization is not the only form of value. One can enjoy the lute for its own sake, or develop it into a new and otherwise hitherto unknown art form.

I have taken liberal arts courses and traditional STEM courses at the college level. The more demanding curricula are the STEM, in my view. But, I scored equally well on my assessment tests for both "verbal" and "mathematical" skills. I remember getting my SAT scores back, back in the day -- and my 650 math and 650 verbal gave me no indication of what I should take in college. LOL

[Cormac]

Businesses relying on economists, physicists, business majors, and hardcore tech or ran us into this current crisis.

The absence of an understanding of the logical fallacies and some disciplines of critical thinking in business is a huge problem.

I'm not following - are you suggesting that if businesses make economic projections based on an English major's or a Historian's work, that it would be more likely to achieve a positive outcome than if based on an Economist's work?

Almost any business outcome will be better for excluding economists efforts, in my experience.

But that isn't the main point I was making.
MBAs, Accountants, Engineers, and other technically qualified people are almost as useless as someone with no technical qualification, if the have no practical experience.

Most of all, we lack people who are able to think clearly, and perceive issues and risks and to recognise coordination failures for what they are. This requires an ability to recognise fallacial statements for what they are. This means understanding that things are fundamentally uncertain, and oddly, technical people are not very good at this.

[Cormac]

Liberal arts degrees are great, but they aren't what businesses are generally looking for.

and for evidence of that you have ???

I run a tech business.....tech graduates can't communicate worth shit.....liberal arts grads communicate better and have a more flexible range of skills to offer.

[Coito ergo sum]

Businesses relying on economists, physicists, business majors, and hardcore tech or ran us into this current crisis.

The absence of an understanding of the logical fallacies and some disciplines of critical thinking in business is a huge problem.

I'm not following - are you suggesting that if businesses make economic projections based on an English major's or a Historian's work, that it would be more likely to achieve a positive outcome than if based on an Economist's work?

Almost any business outcome will be better for excluding economists efforts, in my experience.

But that isn't the main point I was making.
MBAs, Accountants, Engineers, and other technically qualified people are almost as useless as someone with no technical qualification, if the have no practical experience.

Most of all, we lack people who are able to think clearly, and perceive issues and risks and to recognise coordination failures for what they are. This requires an ability to recognise fallacial statements for what they are. This means understanding that things are fundamentally uncertain, and oddly, technical people are not very good at this.

But, are liberal arts people better at that? I haven't seen it. In terms of thinking clearly, those without technical backgrounds seem less able to think clearly than those with artsy backgrounds. Mathematics and science backgrounds seems to instill a more logic based way of thinking than the arts. IMO