Metaphysics as an Error

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Little Idiot
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:55 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:
When awake, you compare the dream and waking state, but in the dream you think the dream is real because the waking world is not there to compare.
Why do you think the dream world is available in the waking state but not the reverse? This says something rather significant about the waking state, and I think you are making an arbitrary (or ex recto) assertion based on prejudices you hold but which are not shared by others. Both are states of the brain.

Since neuroscientists have a more sophisticated model than this, you appear to be talking out of your arse again.
We know appearence is deceptive, so no worries there.
Only a fool would say there is no more significance in waking than dreaming, I certainally did not say that.
I know of at least one specialist in the field who shares these words, but if I name him, it becomes 'argument from authority'. Whats the name of your fallacy here, should we say
Ad Populum, assuming your position is more popular because you say no one shares mind, or shall we say Ad Hominem Tu Quoque, because you are contradicting what I said, maybe Ad Verecundiam (appeal to authority) because you appeal to the 'neuroscientists' ...
I think I will pick an appeal to Consequences of a Belief, my argument is wrong because it appears to contradict your belief that waking and dreaming experiences are both states of a brain.
And it is a belief, because it is not proven by neuroscience, and so is a statement and opinion held without evidence.
<waves at SoS who's going to flip out>
Or I could use the well established catch all in one 'thats bullshit' that has been so common in this thread - but I think thats too boring...
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:08 pm

And it is a belief, because it is not proven by neuroscience, and so is a statement and opinion held without evidence.
<waves at SoS who's going to flip out>
You just showed that you know nothing about science, refuting your ludicrous claims about educating people in physics. :funny:
The original arrogant bastard.
Quod tanto impendio absconditur etiam solummodo demonstrare destruere est - Tertullian

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Kenny Login » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:29 pm

Luis Dias wrote:
I think your statement "we know nothing of the 'something' except the data" is an interesting one.
Yes, it's called "information theory". Look it up.
Yes, and it's not relevant to the comment.
Luis Dias wrote:
Empirical knowledge runs into problems when the data isn't easily digested. Then I think metaphysics becomes like the proverbial elephant in the room.
Give some examples, justify this assertion. Handwaving assertions like that is considered trolling in this thread so you know...
Hmmm...... like the suggestions I've given twice already which have been ignored? Cognitive science, psychology, neuroscience. Give the trolling jokes a miss, thanks.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:31 pm

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
And it is a belief, because it is not proven by neuroscience, and so is a statement and opinion held without evidence.
<waves at SoS who's going to flip out>
You just showed that you know nothing about science, refuting your ludicrous claims about educating people in physics. :funny:
Even if you were to prove me wrong in neuroscience, which I doubt you will, that would have no effect on my ability to teach physics.
Fail bagde for you.

So prove me wrong; you have just implied neuroscience has proved a point you snipped, so out with it! what do you claim exactly, and how do you prove it?
Or is it just more hot air?
EDIT I assume you are refering to the claim, which I say is wrong, that both waking and dreaming are brain states?
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by TheArtfulDodger » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:49 pm

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:Reposted, though slightly updated. Last paragraph added.

What does it mean to say "Metaphysics is an error"? It means to ask the question "What do we mean when we say this or that exists?" and to find the answers we find in philosophy and outside unsatisfactory. It is not a profession of faith that metaphysics is impossible, but rather a profound scepticism, a lack of affiliation with any one claim that states it holds the answer to the question what 'existence' means.
Why is this scepticism? Why is this criticism? Because it surpasses being a simple contrarian. One must first understand metaphysics, what has been proposed under the banner of metaphysics before one can find it unsatisfactory, and it is criticism, because it demolishes an important concept, whilst providing a new, more subtle, more elevated value.

Beside this, it is important to note that not existence is an error, but metaphysics. The critique, and the scepticism, is not directed at the word existence, which in the human language can fluctuate from denoting the problematic metaphysical keystone to some precisely defined scientific state. We could easily imagine that 'existence' is defined as 'measurable'. In that case, the word escapes the critique, but metaphysics does not. One is immediately warned, however, that such business of defining often is committed in the area of equivocation, where on one side, existence has a metaphysical face, and on the other side, it is this highly defined scientific state of measurability.
This, clearly can not stand. Unless there is some evidence or argument to demonstrate that measurability has any metaphysical implications, then clearly, such an equivocation is unwarranted and can not - as of yet - be accepted. One observes, this criticism and the scepticism is dipped in knowledge, not ignorance of metaphysical theories.
Generally I think I find this all agreeable.

If we should avoid equivocating "metaphysics" with "existence", and "existence" with "measurable", what becomes the subject matter of metaphysics? My first response would be to say "the study of the difference between appearance and reality". But this itself is hugely ambiguous and problematic. To be clear, is the metaphysician undertaking what is essentially a linguistic-semantic enquiry, or does he perhaps see his (mis)use of language as some sort of divining tool? Personally, I wouldve thought our conceptual structures were based on the non-conceptual world rather than vice versa. I mean, sure, with words we can create worlds, but lets not conflate this story-telling capacity with that of logos: "Let there be light", and then there was light.
It should immediately become clear that the essential problem here is 'satisfactory'. Some people might argue that the evidence and argument has been satisfactorily provided for the existence of God. Similarly, we can expect people to state that evidence and arguments have been satisfactorily provided that existence itself makes any sense. The question of God is related to that of existence, of course, and to be sceptical of existence means to be sceptical of God specifically as well.
What does this mean? It means that if metaphysics is removed, one is only left with the 'apparent' world, the empirical world - what may now be called the real world. It means that if there is to be any room for God, it is as an empirical concept, not as some supra-empirical concept.
Again, I agree with your sentiments here. My problem with many Platonic-Kantians is that whilst I can agree that there is a distinction to be made between "appearance" and "reality", the distinction is by no means absolute nor exclusive. Put crudely, "appearance" is a subset of "reality", not a duality. Plato made the distinction an ontological duality, whilst Kant endorsed an epistemic dualism. Whilst I find these conclusions/metaphysics unsound, I certainly empathise with some of the basic premises. The problem lies not so much with the concepts these thinkers begin with, but, as you noted earlier, what they supposed these concepts (appearance, reality) implied.
The argument here enters its most difficult stage. Not that it is difficult in itself, but because people seem unwilling to keep to the argument. It seems so obvious to many people that all things must be caused (even though a causal relationship is used with reliability in the empirical world, and there's no reason to believe that its usage in metaphysics is valid) that empirical reality must be caused by 'something else', and that this something else must be of some quality that is metaphysical. The idea that one should refrain from speaking of such things is seen to be as cowardice, precisely because it is assumed that 'there is something out there'. The extension, the implication is that there is something to be described, even when it might be unknowable.
Certainly, and how does the metaphysician perform his sleight of hand? He notes that we talk of things appearing, and things being real. So, the idea of a world of appearance and a real world is pulled forth from his hat; the real world underlies the apparent world. Again, I think this dualism can be enticing precisely because it is based on a quite ordinary distinction between "appears" and "really". One need only contemplate why, and when, we make the distinction in everyday discourse in order to see the perversion the metaphysician undertakes.
The point is, however, that the methods not of getting to metaphysics, but the methods of coming to the idea of metaphysics, the methods by which one makes the assumption that there is something that can be covered by the term existence are suspect. This, of course, is highly problematic, not in the least because it is apparently assumed that denying the existence of the sun would mean to deny the sun as an empirical phenomenon, when nothing like that is intended. The sun is empirical and can be measured, but the idea that it is caused by some 'metaphysical sun', some 'thing-in-itself', this idea comes with suspect methods. That is to say, methods that have never been successfully argued for or provided evidence for.
A whole lexicon of terms has been invented to further propogate the metaphysicians duality; I find this process intriguing at least from the perspective of genealogy. The metaphysician is in this regard some sort of pseudo-alchemist, trying to make immiscible what is essentially an epistemic distinction.
What do we end up with? We end up with the four great problems of Metaphysics. One, that metaphysical content - the concept of thing-in-itself - has no argument or evidence going for it. We have no way of measuring 'reliability' within metaphysics, or what that would mean. Within the empirical world, science is the most reliable tool for measurement. Reliable simply means that it (often) makes accurate predictions. However, the empirical world is a construct of predictions, so even the world 'reliable' CAN NOT be used in reference to metaphysics. We'll get to that later.
Im not sure Id say the empirical world is a construct of predictions, that dosnt sound quite right. Id perhaps say that the empirical world provides the criteria by which our predictions (as concepts) are structured. Im not quite happy with that either, though. At any rate, Im content to merely draw a distinction between our conceptual structures and the non-conceptual world which provides the criteria for their use. Of course, Im not claiming that our conceptual structures lie "outside" the non-conceptual world.
The second great problem of metaphysics is the problem of the possibility of Metaphysics. It is conceivable (leaving alone possible) that we have evidence and arguments that metaphysics is possible, but that we simply have none for specific content. Meaning that there is something ineffable that we ineptly express with 'existence' when used metaphysically, but that it still denotes something. For this, no evidence or argument has ever been posited. No philosopher hitherto has seen fit to explore this issue.
Thats a good point. But then I dont think metaphysics has ever been concerned with specific content, as such.
Third, there are very great doubts whether it is possible to mount an argument or evidence for either of the above problems. This means, the third great problem of metaphysics is that there is no reason to believe that we are able to ever do metaphysics. This means, put simply, that there is no basis on which to assume that either arguments or evidence, respectively, ratio or senses, are capable of providing the sort of information that would qualify as evidence of the possibility of metaphysics. Quite clearly, metaphysical content is not empirical, and we have no evidence or argument to believe that our minds are capable of anything beyond rudimentary problem solving.
I think metaphysics is possible in the sense that it is a spandrel of our linguistic-cogntive systems. To be pedantic, I would rephrase your claim to something like "Is it possible to have evidence of which, if any, metaphysical judgments are true?" How do we determine which metaphysical judgments are true, and which are not?
Fourth is a problem of linguistics. Earlier the observation was made that 'reliable' is a concept rooted in empiricism. There's no reason to believe that in metaphysics, concepts/words from empiricism will still work. Take, per example, the term 'causality'. Within empiricism, it denotes a relationship between two events. Namely, that the occurrence of one event necessitates the other. If event A, then event B. There's no reason to believe that this idea applies to metaphysics. The idea that 'the empirical world must be caused', per example, is assuming that causality applies outside of the empirical world. There is no argument or evidence for this. Put short, it is assumed that a domain-specific concept can be used as domain-general. Again, sans evidence, and sans argument.
Im entirely uncomfortable with the idea that the "empirical world" is anything but a metaphorical container; what does it mean for something to be outside the empirical world? I think it was Ayer who pointed out the Cartesian error of taking metaphors as literal facts about the world.

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Re: Proof that kills relativism

Post by TheArtfulDodger » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:52 pm

jamest wrote:The relativists' claim is that there is no way to know of anything, other than 'E' (the empirical realm).

Now, let's attend to the subset of 'E' - that is, the constituent parts of E (henceforth 'Es'), such as the Sun, other stars, the Earth, water, trees, pigs, humanity, etc. etc.. Though I really want to focus upon 'you', the individual itself (henceforth 'ii').

Now, how does the ii observe/see/perceive (or whatever word the J-team choose) the members of Es? From the point of view of logic, there can only be two possible stances:

1) The ii observes Es as they are, externally to itself. That is, the ii observes Es as they are, apart and distinct to itself.
2) The ii observes Es representationally and internally to itself. That is, the image of Es is generated within the ii.
Im not sure why you have found it necessary to qualify "E" in such a manner. The notion of spatial relation seems to take on some kind of existential import for metaphysicians: the kitchen is an internal feature of the house, but it is existentially external to the attic, bathroom, and bedroom. Sure, the sun is external to me, but is it existentially or metaphysically external? If we lived in Plato's realm of Forms, perhaps (but even then Id have grave doubts as to how such things could be known). I think that we can all agree that, where I see the sun above me, the sun is up there and I am down here. Simple. So why the need to claim further "Oh, but I dont just see the sun above me, I see the sun as it is, external to me."


Does someone who see's the sun differently to me entail one of us is not seeing the sun "as it is"? Is this person, then, not seeing an external as-it-is sun, but an internal as-it-seems sun? The concepts of "internal" and "external" have there place, sure, but why the need for the metaphysican to pervert their meaning? Must internal and external be absolutes? Typically, descriptions of the empirical world are based on context and relation. As far as I know, there is no such thing as absolute isolation: observation entails, in some capacity, modification. Dynamics. What does it mean to know something "as it is"? To know it purely? Untainted? Scientifically this is outdated thinking, philosophically it is naive. It reeks of Plato.

I can agree that, empirically, we have criteria by which we can differentiate the world into things. I disagree that this implies absolute distinctions. When we undertake a discourse using macro-concepts such as "sun" and "eyes" etc, it makes perfect sense to talk of these objects as distinct, seperate entities. However, talk of solar systems, or quantum particles, disentegrates this distinction. As far as atoms are concerned, asking where "I" end and "the sun" begins is akin to asking how many grains of sand constitute a pile.

In this much I tend to agree with the OP, that neither discourse should have metaphysical implications, at least not the implications trying to be drawn by you.
There are no rational alternatives - where one entity sees another, that vision must be internal or external to the viewer. This is a necessary addendum to the relativist stance, although [seemingly] he is probably ignorant of this necessity.
Im unfamiliar with any non-metaphysical discourse which would make sense of the claim that "vision must be internal or external to the viewer." Yes, we have phrases such as "I see a purple elephant in my mind", and "Its true, I can see a UFO up above me in the sky", but in neither case do we generalise and claim all visuals must be internal or external to the viewer. In most cases, we dont see visuals, but objects, and it is objects that are spatialised relative to one another.


We can now go on to develop this line of thought:

If '1' (see above), then an ontology is implied, since it is necessary that each individual of Es must BE separate and distinct to one another. This is commensurate with the general materialist outlook - which is a metaphysic; hence not facilitating a rejection of [other] metaphysics.
I obviously disagree with the phrasing of (1). Why should we charactise seeing in terms of internality-externality?
If '2', then it becomes clear that 'E' must necessarily be distinct, yet integral, to the ii. That is, E must be reducible to the ii, since it is merely a representation, generated by the ii within itself.
This position is not commensurate with idealism/solipsism, since no denial or refutation of an 'external realm' has [yet] been forthcoming. That is, at this juncture, nothing has been said sufficient to invoke any ontology, nor to refute relativism. However, further progression can be made:

If '2', it has been shown that E is reducible to the ii, since each observed entity (Es) is [internally] self-generated. That is, no single member of Es is the ii itself. Formally:

1) If Es is internal to E.
2) And E is internal to the ii.
3) Then E is not internal to Es (not internal to constituent part(s) of E), and:
4) Therefore, the ii is not synonymous with Es (the ii is not a member of Es)... and therefore, not synonymous with E (the ii is not in the empirical realm).

Here, if '2', the conclusion is that there is 'something' that exists that is distinct to the empirical realm, that gives rise to that realm. This 'thing' provides a basis/grounds/opportunity for metaphysics. It also provides sufficient basis to reject the relativist claim that "there is no way to know of anything, other than E (Es)", since the progressive logic of '2' does facilitate such knowledge. In a nutshell, it renders relativism as baseless... and therefore, as obsolete. Dead.
Youve made a fatal mistake, I believe. Youve conflated an empirical object which is currently being perceived, with any and all empirical objects that could possibly be but are not currently being perceived. The empirical world is not constituted by one or the other, but both. The difference is marked by the context or relations of the things which constitute the empirical domain; that is, there is no hidden metaphysical realm that underlies either.

To be clear, an empirical object is something which is not only obeserved, but observable.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:00 am

Little Idiot wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
And it is a belief, because it is not proven by neuroscience, and so is a statement and opinion held without evidence.
<waves at SoS who's going to flip out>
You just showed that you know nothing about science, refuting your ludicrous claims about educating people in physics. :funny:
Even if you were to prove me wrong in neuroscience, which I doubt you will, that would have no effect on my ability to teach physics.
Fail bagde for you.

So prove me wrong; you have just implied neuroscience has proved a point you snipped, so out with it! what do you claim exactly, and how do you prove it?
Or is it just more hot air?
EDIT I assume you are refering to the claim, which I say is wrong, that both waking and dreaming are brain states?
Science and neuroscience do not 'prove' anything, and the idea that this lack of proof in science constitutes that any given scientific proposition is a belief or an absence of evidence for such a one proposition is balderdash. Hence, you don't know what you are talking about. No scientist ever claims to have proof for anything, it is a specific term specifically NOT used within science except by people who do not understand the most rudimentary elements of science. Case in point: BrianMan.
TheArtfulDodger wrote:Im entirely uncomfortable with the idea that the "empirical world" is anything but a metaphorical container; what does it mean for something to be outside the empirical world? I think it was Ayer who pointed out the Cartesian error of taking metaphors as literal facts about the world.
Could you be more specific about what you mean here, I'm not sure I entirely understand.
The original arrogant bastard.
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Re: Proof that kills relativism

Post by jamest » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:48 am

Welcome ArtfulDodger. How refreshing to see a critique focus upon the actual content of my posts, devoid of rhetoric and condescension and all manner of nasties. And that's really all I want - mature debate.
TheArtfulDodger wrote:
jamest wrote:The relativists' claim is that there is no way to know of anything, other than 'E' (the empirical realm).

Now, let's attend to the subset of 'E' - that is, the constituent parts of E (henceforth 'Es'), such as the Sun, other stars, the Earth, water, trees, pigs, humanity, etc. etc.. Though I really want to focus upon 'you', the individual itself (henceforth 'ii').

Now, how does the ii observe/see/perceive (or whatever word the J-team choose) the members of Es? From the point of view of logic, there can only be two possible stances:

1) The ii observes Es as they are, externally to itself. That is, the ii observes Es as they are, apart and distinct to itself.
2) The ii observes Es representationally and internally to itself. That is, the image of Es is generated within the ii.
Im not sure why you have found it necessary to qualify "E" in such a manner. The notion of spatial relation seems to take on some kind of existential import for metaphysicians: the kitchen is an internal feature of the house, but it is existentially external to the attic, bathroom, and bedroom. Sure, the sun is external to me, but is it existentially or metaphysically external? If we lived in Plato's realm of Forms, perhaps (but even then Id have grave doubts as to how such things could be known). I think that we can all agree that, where I see the sun above me, the sun is up there and I am down here. Simple. So why the need to claim further "Oh, but I dont just see the sun above me, I see the sun as it is, external to me."
The point of my post that you cite, is to focus upon the observational aspect of the empirical realm. That is, if an entity observes/sees/acknowledges an entity within 'the world', then what can be said about 'that' which is observed/seen/acknowledged? Is it 'something' observed/seen/acknowledged internally or externally to that which is observing/seeing/acknowledging?
This observational aspect cannot be ignored, because we are not just talking about entities blindly interacting with one another. We are talking about entities - namely: ourselves - that observe/recognise/see/acknowledge other entities. Consequently, the question begs as to whether these other entities are constructs existing apart/external from ourselves, or entities that are constructed within/internally to ourselves (whatever it is that we are).

This question leads to an either/or answer. That is, the answer is either '1', or '2', as per the post that you cite. And, whichever answer leads to the demise of relativism (and anti-metaphysics), for reasons given in that post.

My reasoning forces the relativist to acknowledge that 'observation' leads to this solution. As far as I'm concerned, relativism has developed as a consequence of failing to address this issue.
Does someone who see's the sun differently to me entail one of us is not seeing the sun "as it is"?
Not necessarily; though note that the sun "as it is" implies an external existence to 'you', for that sun. It could just mean that there were different opinions about 'something' that was happening internally. That is, a difference in opinion about 'something' does not suffice to tell us about the internal or external nature of that thing.
Is this person, then, not seeing an external as-it-is sun, but an internal as-it-seems sun? The concepts of "internal" and "external" have there place, sure, but why the need for the metaphysican to pervert their meaning? Must internal and external be absolutes?
There is nothing 'perverted' about it. The fact is that 'observation' is a significant concept in this matter, requiring an either/or solution.
Typically, descriptions of the empirical world are based on context and relation. As far as I know, there is no such thing as absolute isolation: observation entails, in some capacity, modification. Dynamics. What does it mean to know something "as it is"? To know it purely? Untainted? Scientifically this is outdated thinking, philosophically it is naive. It reeks of Plato.
I haven't said that you can know something "as it is" via observation. My point is that when one entity observes another, then there are internal/external issues to be resolved. And, whether internal or external, 'observation' is the death knell of relativism. That is, it does not matter whether observation is internal/external, since either outcome leads to the demise of relativism.
I can agree that, empirically, we have criteria by which we can differentiate the world into things. I disagree that this implies absolute distinctions. When we undertake a discourse using macro-concepts such as "sun" and "eyes" etc, it makes perfect sense to talk of these objects as distinct, seperate entities. However, talk of solar systems, or quantum particles, disentegrates this distinction. As far as atoms are concerned, asking where "I" end and "the sun" begins is akin to asking how many grains of sand constitute a pile.
I don't see any of that as being relevant to what I have said. That is, whichever aspect of the empirical realm you care to discuss, has to be reducible to an internal or external (to the observer) feature of that being discussed.
There are no rational alternatives - where one entity sees another, that vision must be internal or external to the viewer. This is a necessary addendum to the relativist stance, although [seemingly] he is probably ignorant of this necessity.
Im unfamiliar with any non-metaphysical discourse which would make sense of the claim that "vision must be internal or external to the viewer."
Of course not, since the acknowledgement of such leads to the demise of "non-metaphysical discourse". There can be nothing "familiar" about such a claim - especially as the claim has only recently been made, by myself.
Yes, we have phrases such as "I see a purple elephant in my mind", and "Its true, I can see a UFO up above me in the sky", but in neither case do we generalise and claim all visuals must be internal or external to the viewer. In most cases, we dont see visuals, but objects, and it is objects that are spatialised relative to one another.
I understand that, but it is irrelevant to the logic presented in my post that you cite. That is, what I am saying is just a consequence of logic: an observation MUST be either internal or external to that which observes, by logical necessity.
Youve made a fatal mistake, I believe. Youve conflated an empirical object which is currently being perceived, with any and all empirical objects that could possibly be but are not currently being perceived. The empirical world is not constituted by one or the other, but both. The difference is marked by the context or relations of the things which constitute the empirical domain; that is, there is no hidden metaphysical realm that underlies either.

To be clear, an empirical object is something which is not only obeserved, but observable.
It is not my position that our understanding of anything, is fixed. Indeed, earlier in the thread I argued that the empirical realm is synonymous with our ever-changing understanding of it. I simply don't understand the relevance of this text, though I am getting tired - feel free to elucidate.

Thanks for your contribution.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by jamest » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:44 am

Surendra Darathy wrote:
jamest wrote: I've proved that 'something' exists beyond the single umbrella of the empirical realm. And the focus of this proof was the empirical realm itself. I haven't assumed anything, least of all metaphysics. Certainly, metaphysics is the conclusion of that particular proof, as in: and, therefore, there is a grounds for metaphysics to focus upon.
That is, my proof facilitates the onset of metaphysics.
Again with your garbage assertions, James. You assert that you've proven that something exists. To talk about existence at all, you already need to assume metaphysics, as "existence" is a metaphysical property.
To be clear: the proof that something must BE the grounds of empirical observation/knowledge/seeing/whatever, is to prove that something [else] must exist that is not just empirical observation/etc.; since 'being' is synonmous with 'existence'.
You have shown now a couple of dozen times you are not able to discourse about what you want to show without using the word "existence". For someone to try to bootstrap metaphysics by use of the word "existence" is pathetically inane.
Look, I'm aware that I've used the word 'existence', but note that it is a CONCLUSION to my reasoning.
Your fumbling word game is completely amateurish.
Says one intent upon reducing the totality of this debate to a "word game".
You call the empirical a "realm" as if it was a metaphysical category. It is not.
No, I call the empirical a realm as if it were just a category [yet] to be understood. That is, the use of the word 'realm' implies nothing, metaphysically, on my part.
The empirical is the collection of all observations
Oh look - he used the word 'observation' - which, significantly, is THE word upon which I focus to make the conclusions that I do actually make!!
The exchange of communication is an empirical fact.
Whether communication is founded & faciltated solely upon 'the empirical', is obviously open to debate. Hence this conversation.
Do not talk about the existence of anything until you have established that metaphysics is viable.
Don't be silly. It is [the] existence [of something] that makes metaphysics viable, not vice versa. That is, metaphysics doesn't become viable until the existence of 'something' [upon which the empirical is based] becomes established.
Please desist. Your efforts are now in a shambles, except for your persistence in making naked (ex recto) assertions.
There are very few people within this thread that are engaged in systematic rationale to establish their position, including yourself. I am one of them though, as is evident by my posts; and anything I have said is a conclusion to that rationale. As far as I'm concerned, you're just a troll with a large vocabulary and a wit that I wouldn't want my daughter to imitate. Gottit?
The observations are what is communicated,
That you don't understand the significance of 'observation' in a realm where entities interact, is reflective of your own myopia and/or prejudice. It's about time that you changed your tune, to be blunt.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by SpeedOfSound » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:55 am

Kenny Login wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:No one wants to touch jamest's argument. I quit reading after the ii.
Surendra Darathy wrote:The only thing that is a "faux pas" is to refer to a "personal empirical programme". It is like referring to a square circle. All it does is bend semantics instead of spoons. :biggrin:
I think it's understandable that no one committed to positivism really wants to touch the 'i' with a barge pole. Hard materialists jump through hoops to sidestep the juicy bits and hope no one notices. It's easy to dismiss things as 'word salad' in favour of truth statements derived from a formalised language, but everyone indulges in a bit of word salad when it happens to suit them.
The favorite salad of the idealist starts with the ineffable i's.

Second course is little snarpy shots at the strawful materialist of wooful lore.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by SpeedOfSound » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:18 am

Little Idiot wrote: I think I will pick an appeal to Consequences of a Belief, my argument is wrong because it appears to contradict your belief that waking and dreaming experiences are both states of a brain.
And it is a belief, because it is not proven by neuroscience, and so is a statement and opinion held without evidence.
<waves at SoS who's going to flip out>
Or I could use the well established catch all in one 'thats bullshit' that has been so common in this thread - but I think thats too boring...
As long as you refrain from using the phrase "neuroscience knows nothing about" or "neuroscience doesn't know' before you have actually read one thin volume about the brain we will be okay.

This guy here is borderline woohead. I think his name is Jackheroff or something like that. Nevertheless, there is an opportunity to educate yourself a little in this video. The man knows some things. He just doesn't know when to pull out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw9Jo5qN ... r_embedded
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by FBM » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:59 am

jamest wrote:... As far as I'm concerned, you're just a troll with a large vocabulary and a wit that I wouldn't want my daughter to imitate. Gottit?
Name-calling and personal attacks are clearly inappropriate. Please direct your comments at the ideas, rather than the person. This isn't a formal warning. Let's not let this sort of thing escalate, please. Thanks.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by TheArtfulDodger » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:01 am

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
TheArtfulDodger wrote:Im entirely uncomfortable with the idea that the "empirical world" is anything but a metaphorical container; what does it mean for something to be outside the empirical world? I think it was Ayer who pointed out the Cartesian error of taking metaphors as literal facts about the world.
Could you be more specific about what you mean here, I'm not sure I entirely understand.
Generally speaking, I think metaphysics can in part be characterised by a tendency to literalize. It would seem there is an implicit assumption (by metaphysicians) that the structure of the non-linguistic world mirrors or complies with the structure of our linguistic utterances. For example, we may speak of ‘the empirical’ as a domain or world which contains things. This then seems to allow of talk to the contrary, where things are ‘outside’ the empirical world. My point would be that the concepts of spatiality and internal-external properly belong to the relations between the things which constitute or comprise the empirical world; such concepts are meaningless when used without this criteria (for, what would their criteria then be?). As you yourself said of non-empirical causality, they are being used outside their (semantic) domain.

We talk of the world metaphorically as if it were a container; the metaphysician will take this as literal and posit non-empirical stuff that lies ‘outside’ the empirical domain. But the logic is purely semantic. We might be better to say that the empirical world is comprised of spatial relations, and as such it makes no sense to talk of something non-empirical (metaphysical) being in a spatial relation to the empirical world: spatiality is a characteristic of the empirical, not the metaphysical, almost by definition. How, then, can metaphysical existants be in spatial relations with empirical existants?

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by TheArtfulDodger » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:41 am

jamest wrote:
TheArtfulDodger wrote:
jamest wrote:Now, let's attend to the subset of 'E' - that is, the constituent parts of E (henceforth 'Es'), such as the Sun, other stars, the Earth, water, trees, pigs, humanity, etc. etc.. Though I really want to focus upon 'you', the individual itself (henceforth 'ii').

Now, how does the ii observe/see/perceive (or whatever word the J-team choose) the members of Es? From the point of view of logic, there can only be two possible stances:

1) The ii observes Es as they are, externally to itself. That is, the ii observes Es as they are, apart and distinct to itself.
2) The ii observes Es representationally and internally to itself. That is, the image of Es is generated within the ii.

Im not sure why you have found it necessary to qualify "E" in such a manner. The notion of spatial relation seems to take on some kind of existential import for metaphysicians: the kitchen is an internal feature of the house, but it is existentially external to the attic, bathroom, and bedroom. Sure, the sun is external to me, but is it existentially or metaphysically external? If we lived in Plato's realm of Forms, perhaps (but even then Id have grave doubts as to how such things could be known). I think that we can all agree that, where I see the sun above me, the sun is up there and I am down here. Simple. So why the need to claim further "Oh, but I dont just see the sun above me, I see the sun as it is, external to me."
The point of my post that you cite, is to focus upon the observational aspect of the empirical realm. That is, if an entity observes/sees/acknowledges an entity within 'the world', then what can be said about 'that' which is observed/seen/acknowledged? Is it 'something' observed/seen/acknowledged internally or externally to that which is observing/seeing/acknowledging?
I don’t see any deeper implications to the concepts “internal-external” than what is, in a sense, empirically transparent: X observes Y, X and Y are in a spatial relation to one another. The concepts of internality-externality have their meanings grounded in such relations, not in some hidden (non-empirical) metaphysical sense.

This observational aspect cannot be ignored, because we are not just talking about entities blindly interacting with one another. We are talking about entities - namely: ourselves - that observe/recognise/see/acknowledge other entities. Consequently, the question begs as to whether these other entities are constructs existing apart/external from ourselves, or entities that are constructed within/internally to ourselves (whatever it is that we are).
Okay, heres how I understand things: observation is an event that involves an observer component and an observed component. Observation cannot be reduced to either one or the other, it is both apsects. Observation is a causal relation between both these aspects. Further, observation involves a synthesis (or entanglement) between observer and observed. In this sense, then, it dosnt make much sense to me to ask whether the observation is external or internal to the observer, as it involves aspects of both. There is an event, and it is most accurately decsribed using both concepts, not one or the other exclusively.

As such, the ‘either/or’ you propose (as far as Im concerned) commits the fallacy of the excluded middle. Im dubious of using the concepts “internal/external” to characterise observation; much like the concepts of “direct/indirect”, I don’t think they carry any metaphysical weight at all.
This question leads to an either/or answer. That is, the answer is either '1', or '2', as per the post that you cite. And, whichever answer leads to the demise of relativism (and anti-metaphysics), for reasons given in that post.
Metaphysics endorses a dualism I myself find repulsive ie the incommensurable nature of “appearance” and “reality”. Your post didn’t provide an argument in favour of maintaining this dualism.

jamest wrote:
TheArtfulDodger wrote:Typically, descriptions of the empirical world are based on context and relation. As far as I know, there is no such thing as absolute isolation: observation entails, in some capacity, modification. Dynamics. What does it mean to know something "as it is"? To know it purely? Untainted? Scientifically this is outdated thinking, philosophically it is naive. It reeks of Plato.
I haven't said that you can know something "as it is" via observation. My point is that when one entity observes another, then there are internal/external issues to be resolved. And, whether internal or external, 'observation' is the death knell of relativism. That is, it does not matter whether observation is internal/external, since either outcome leads to the demise of relativism.
Why are there internal/external issues to be resolved? If there is any problem, it is a problem the metaphysician himself has created. As far as our everyday language and discourse is concerned, there are no such problems. As far as our current scientific discourses are concerned, there are no such problems that need resolution. We talk rather effortlessly, everyday, regarding our observations. Can you convince me the “internal-external” issue, as you describe it, is anything but a pseudo problem?
jamest wrote:
TheArtfulDodger wrote:I can agree that, empirically, we have criteria by which we can differentiate the world into things. I disagree that this implies absolute distinctions. When we undertake a discourse using macro-concepts such as "sun" and "eyes" etc, it makes perfect sense to talk of these objects as distinct, seperate entities. However, talk of solar systems, or quantum particles, disentegrates this distinction. As far as atoms are concerned, asking where "I" end and "the sun" begins is akin to asking how many grains of sand constitute a pile.
I don't see any of that as being relevant to what I have said. That is, whichever aspect of the empirical realm you care to discuss, has to be reducible to an internal or external (to the observer) feature of that being discussed.
There are no rational alternatives - where one entity sees another, that vision must be internal or external to the viewer. This is a necessary addendum to the relativist stance, although [seemingly] he is probably ignorant of this necessity.

Ive already hinted at an alternative, one that dosnt create/endorse an either-or dichotomy. If we must describe observation utilising internal-external concepts, then these concepts are not descriptors of some ‘absolute’, but are context-perspective dependant. For example, my brain is both inside my body and outside my hands, yet my hands are part of the body my brain is inside.
jamest wrote:
TheArtfulDodger wrote:I Yes, we have phrases such as "I see a purple elephant in my mind", and "Its true, I can see a UFO up above me in the sky", but in neither case do we generalise and claim all visuals must be internal or external to the viewer. In most cases, we dont see visuals, but objects, and it is objects that are spatialised relative to one another.
I understand that, but it is irrelevant to the logic presented in my post that you cite. That is, what I am saying is just a consequence of logic: an observation MUST be either internal or external to that which observes, by logical necessity.
Typically, one does not observe observation; surely you mean the observed must be either internal or external to that which observes? Either way, the claim is ambiguous. Yes, the observer-observed involves some sort of spatial relation. This spatial relation is empirically grounded. But you seem to be aiming at something more than this: ideally, the observed is something wholly independent of the observer. Again, I suggest this to be both scientifically and philosophically outdated. Conceptually we may certainly speak in terms of absolutes (the car is over there, I am here), but this dosnt entail that the non-conceptual world is too likewise structured.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by SpeedOfSound » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:05 am

Little Idiot and jamest. You guys are going to love Stu Jackerhoff. He provides more opportunities for combining the ancient mystic traditions with neuroscience and physics per minute than anyone I have ever listened too. Even better he uses the word quantum in unique new ways like quantum-proteins quantum-holes.

With this new 'science' you should be able to avoid most of the more rational attacks on your position by demanding that we prove that JackOff is wrong. This could conceivably take centuries given the amount of new 'science' he has introduced in just 45 minutes.

Enjoy! ...and by all means use freely to cling to your meta-obfuscated ego and avoid real spiritual work for many decades to come.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

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