Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Rum » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:40 pm

Sean Hayden wrote::sigh: I think a lot of the negativity directed our way is the result of propaganda aimed at discrediting the US. Some days it feels like we've lost that battle altogether. There probably isn't much energy spent propagandizing against the Irish. Why would there be?

Of course the discussion doesn't need to serve some overarching issue, but don't be surprised when it keeps running out of steam without backing from major players interested in highlighting the faults of Ireland. :biggrin:


Nothing to do with America being the biggest guy on the block and willing to push most of the rest of the world around to suit its own interests?

Ireland on the other hand is a small (tiny) country, which has been pretty busy liberalising itself over recent years and it has done little harm to anyone much (barring the occasional bombing of an Englishman or two).
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Forty Two » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:59 pm

So, the propriety of the US's immigration law is dependent on the view of the US as pushing the rest of the world around?

And, since Ireland is one of the good guys, they can deport all they want?

That doesn't really make much logical sense.
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Sean Hayden » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:03 pm

Nothing to do with America being the biggest guy on the block and willing to push most of the rest of the world around to suit its own interests?


That's what I said! :biggrin: Ireland's no threat.

Anyway, we twisted your arm into following us on our grand adventures right? The point still stands, it's not why is your focus not solely on your own problems, but why it so rarely is? It's naive to think that it's only because you've found a real problem in the world doggone it. You're subject to manipulation like the rest of us. In fact, US obsessed Brits may be the perfect proof of the effectiveness of anti-US propaganda. "Even their allies, even those who go with them into all these wars we are fighting, think America done it!"

When you talk about Iran do you think of the US first, or your own government's involvement? How about when you talk about the Shah? --America done it! :lol:
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Rum » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:10 pm

Forty Two wrote:So, the propriety of the US's immigration law is dependent on the view of the US as pushing the rest of the world around?

And, since Ireland is one of the good guys, they can deport all they want?

That doesn't really make much logical sense.


I didn’t say that. You may infer from my post that the generic negativity towards the USA is in part due to its foreign policies, meddling in the affairs of other countries and generally acting as the world’s policeman. There may be good reasons for some of that, if not all and I’m often an apologist for America as I admire a lot about it. However if you play big league you have to expect flack.
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby PsychoSerenity » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:10 pm

Animavore wrote:Yeah, no interest in un-ignoring just to read what bollox is written here.

:this: is the correct decision.

Forty Two wrote:That doesn't really make much logical sense.

Neither does your face! :razzle:
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Forty Two » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:14 pm

Rum wrote:
Forty Two wrote:So, the propriety of the US's immigration law is dependent on the view of the US as pushing the rest of the world around?

And, since Ireland is one of the good guys, they can deport all they want?

That doesn't really make much logical sense.


I didn’t say that. You may infer from my post that the generic negativity towards the USA is in part due to its foreign policies, meddling in the affairs of other countries and generally acting as the world’s policeman. There may be good reasons for some of that, if not all and I’m often an apologist for America as I admire a lot about it. However if you play big league you have to expect flack.


The US and Americans are no strangers to flack, that's for sure.

However, when discussing a specific issue, like immigration policies and practices, it sort of renders the discussion completely pointless if the view of what is and is not acceptable immigration policy depends on whether a country is one of the big boys, excessively meddling, or doing other things that are deemed unpalatable by some.

Even good people can do bad things and make mistakes now and again, and even bad people can do good things now and again. The propriety of the actions is not dependent on the moral quality of the actor, is it?
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Hermit » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:19 pm

Forty Two wrote:Well, it seems to me that Ireland ought to be suspending deportations, and enacting programs to allow illegal immigrants to work in Ireland, utilize Ireland's universal healthcare system and attend public schools. That's what civilized countries should do, isn't it? Deporting people is so American.
I prefer to differentiate between refugees and economic opportunists. Your country has millions of the latter, mostly coming in from Mexico. I have no problem with them being sent back there, though there are some complications. One is children born in the US. The other the massive complicity of US citizens. I mean, how can millions of Mexicans work undetected for a decade or more without a social security number or a valid work visa?
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Rum » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:19 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Nothing to do with America being the biggest guy on the block and willing to push most of the rest of the world around to suit its own interests?


That's what I said! :biggrin: Ireland's no threat.

Anyway, we twisted your arm into following us on our grand adventures right? The point still stands, it's not why is your focus not solely on your own problems, but why it so rarely is? It's naive to think that it's only because you've found a real problem in the world doggone it. You're subject to manipulation like the rest of us. In fact, US obsessed Brits may be the perfect proof of the effectiveness of anti-US propaganda. "Even their allies, even those who go with them into all these wars we are fighting, think America done it!"

When you talk about Iran do you think of the US first, or your own government's involvement? How about when you talk about the Shah? --America done it! :lol:


I’m not posting from a nationalist or patriotic point of view. I’m neither for the most part. There’s actually quite a bit of discussion here about British issues and problems, not least Brexit which generated a lot of posts when immigration was a hot issue in that debate. So I think you are wrong to in thinking the USA is picked on more than it should be here. As the most powerful country in the world, with a current leadership of ego maniacs, creationists, end of times nuts and the largest military in the world by a long margin, it isn’t surprising if it gets a fair bit of attention though is it?

I’m perfectly well aware incidentally, as someone with a decent education, of the background to some of the shit the world seems currently entangled with. The old colonial powers still have a lot to answer for.
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Forty Two » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:21 pm

PsychoSerenity wrote:
Animavore wrote:Yeah, no interest in un-ignoring just to read what bollox is written here.

:this: is the correct decision.

Forty Two wrote:That doesn't really make much logical sense.

Neither does your face! :razzle:

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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Forty Two » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:33 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Well, it seems to me that Ireland ought to be suspending deportations, and enacting programs to allow illegal immigrants to work in Ireland, utilize Ireland's universal healthcare system and attend public schools. That's what civilized countries should do, isn't it? Deporting people is so American.
I prefer to differentiate between refugees and economic opportunists. Your country has millions of the latter, mostly coming in from Mexico. I have no problem with them being sent back there, though there are some complications. One is children born in the US. The other the massive complicity of US citizens. I mean, how can millions of Mexicans work undetected for a decade or more without a social security number or a valid work visa?


Children born in the US are US citizens, which is a fact that has come under a lot of criticism in other threads. Civilized countries do not extend citizenship, generally speaking, to children who happen to be born on their soil. Thus, it's easier for civilized countries to deport folks, as they can't have "anchor babies."

The issue for the US is made more complicated by the sheer number of illegal immigrants, and the dearth of enforcement resources, plus a large political faction that actively works toward frustrating and minimizing the enforcement resources.

How they work undetected is by simply lying and using a fake social security number. The IRS and the immigration service are not working together. Also, employers in some industries like to hire illegals because they help depress wages. We have a movement in the US that says that we need illegals to do the crummy jobs that Americans won't do. The reality is that they do the jobs Americans won't do FOR THE WAGES OFFERED, because they pay illegals a wage which is then under the table or non taxed. Americans can't do that as readily, so they demand a higher wage to pay the higher cost of living.

Also, a good number of illegal aliens will simply operate businesses, which do not require social security numbers. You open a corporation or an LLC and operate that entity with its own tax ID number, and engage in trades work, cleaning services, and any number of small businesses.

One example I can give you is the cleaning industry - house cleaners - they work primarily for cash. So, what they do, some of them, is they come to the US illegally, and they work for some number of years sending money back to their home countries. There are communities of folks from different countries and they stick together, helping each other out. You'll have like a small bodega, Mexican store, and it's run by a mexican guy who knows the system, and he will charge like $10 or $20 to wire money to Mexico. So, someone runs a cleaning service, makes cash -- and this is like between $150 and $300 per day, cash. So, like $750 to $1500 per week, which is like $40,000 to $80,000 per year. They live extremely modestly, in low rent areas, and send bunches of that money home to their poor countries, like Mexico, or Brazil or wherever. One day, they buy a one way ticket to their home country, board a plane, and go live in their paid off home, with a load of tax-free cash in the bank.
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Sean Hayden » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:43 pm

As the most powerful country in the world, with a current leadership of ego maniacs, creationists, end of times nuts and the largest military in the world by a long margin, it isn’t surprising if it gets a fair bit of attention though is it?


Nope, we are a threat.

The old colonial powers still have a lot to answer for.


--dude, you're still doing it. You haven't become a peaceful enlightened government being dragged unwillingly into conflict by the US. You help us. We go into these things together. You're a threat.
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Rum » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:18 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
As the most powerful country in the world, with a current leadership of ego maniacs, creationists, end of times nuts and the largest military in the world by a long margin, it isn’t surprising if it gets a fair bit of attention though is it?


Nope, we are a threat.

The old colonial powers still have a lot to answer for.


--dude, you're still doing it. You haven't become a peaceful enlightened government being dragged unwillingly into conflict by the US. You help us. We go into these things together. You're a threat.


Not in quite the same league though..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41977120


For the first time in over 40 years, Congress has examined a US president's authority to launch a nuclear attack.

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing was titled Authority to Order the Use of Nuclear Weapons.
Some senators expressed concern that the president might irresponsibly order a nuclear strike; others said he must have the authority to act without meddling from lawyers.
The last time Congress debated this issue was in March 1976.
Trump and the nuclear codes
Trump's longstanding nuclear fixation
In August, Mr Trump vowed to unleash "fire and fury like the world has never seen" on North Korea if it continued to expand its atomic weapons programme.
Last month, the Senate committee's Republican chairman, Senator Bob Corker, accused the president of setting the US "on a path to World War III".
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby pErvinalia » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:23 am

Forty Two wrote:
PsychoSerenity wrote:
Animavore wrote:Yeah, no interest in un-ignoring just to read what bollox is written here.

:this: is the correct decision.

Forty Two wrote:That doesn't really make much logical sense.

Neither does your face! :razzle:

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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Strontium Dog » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:28 am

Forty Two wrote:Another woman they deported had entered the country 10 years ago. She was caught, and sent back to Mexico right away, and she was subjected to a deportation order and a legal bar/prohibition on entering the US for a period of time. Instead of obeying that order, she reentered the US almost immediately and made it, and then she opted to live illegally in the US, also working illegally. She was then arrested and deported recently. The tragedy is that she has two kids that she birthed here in the States, and for them to stay with her, they had to go to Mexico. I mean, that's terrible. But, in that circumstance, what would they do in Ireland or elsewhere?


Well, what would happen in Ireland (or indeed, anywhere in Europe) is that if the children were legal citizens (which her children are, as you have jus soli in the United States), then it's extremely unlikely the mother would be deported, because under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, citizens have a legal right to family life. Deporting the mother would therefore violate the right of the children to live within a family.

Right to family life is also Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 23 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, so you could easily argue that in forcibly separating a family, the United States is violating international law (see: Winata v Australia). But what is new under the Republicans.
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Re: Irish Deportation of Undocumented Immigrants

Postby Forty Two » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:06 pm

They did not separate the family, as she is with her children now. And, the family separation issue is, as you pointed out, a serious issue. I note that Winata had several dissenting judges in that case, and in international law cases, there is not generally a principle of stare decisis wherein one opinion carries the weight of law. It's one opinion, and other cases may result in other opinions. In the Winata case, the parents had overstayed and had never been deported, and they lived consistently for 14 years in Oz. They did not, as in the case of the woman in the article I noted, enter the country illegally. There is generally a significant difference between overstaying a visa, and entering illegally in the first place. In the overstay example, a person has the right to enter, is inspected, and allowed in, and they then violate the terms of their visa by overstaying. In the case of the woman in the article I discussed, she walked across the border without presenting herself to customs, and was caught, and subjected to a deportation order. She then sneaked BACK across the board, deportation order in hand, and commenced living in the US. She was then subjected to a new deportation order when she was finally caught, again, later on.

So, the facts are a bit different than Winata, and I do not think the international law on the topic is that if a person comes to Oz or the US and sires or births a child in one of those countries that the parents have now an absolute right to not be deported to a country from which there isn't a refugee issue. The family can stay together and go to the other country.
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