Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they don't

Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they don't

Postby Forty Two » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm

Here is an interview with an ACLU representative concerning the case of Nazi Party v Skokie, IL where the ACLU represented the Nazis advocating that the Village of Skokie IL exceeded its authority in prohibiting the Nazi party from marching and spreading their message, including racist and antisemitic viewpoints, in public in that village.

In these videos he explains the position of the ACLU and why the ACLU would represent the Nazis, and defend the right of the Nazis to spread their bigoted, hateful and racist messages.









Where does the ACLU have it wrong here?

Did the ACLU fail to recognize that the Nazis were privileged and that they shouldn't be allowed to say bad things about oppressed groups? Is there some other reason why the ACLU's argument fails?

Are there particular arguments made by the ACLU rep which are weak or fallacious, or which are just not rational or logical? Can his arguments be attacked at their basic premises? Or, do his conclusions not follow from his premises?
If you ever feel sad, remember that somewhere in the world there is a fat kid dropping his favorite ice cream cone.

I'm not Steve Bannon. I'm not trying to suck my own c**k. - Anthony Scaramucci.
User avatar
Forty Two
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Sean Hayden » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:22 pm

Who gives a shit. If the world changes then the best arguments will be found to justify the state of things. -arguments shmarguments...
If you want to learn something online then don't ask a question. Instead, just post the wrong answer.

-John 3:16
User avatar
Sean Hayden
Microagressor
 
Posts: 6675
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:55 pm

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Brian Peacock » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:37 pm

Society, via the law, has no right to stop anyone from saying anything, or sanction anyone for doing anything, because you ain't the boss of me - you ain't even my real Dad.
.


"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT


.
User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
 
Posts: 16000
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
Location: Location: Location:
About me: Ablate me:

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby pErvinalia » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:26 am

Sean Hayden wrote:Who gives a shit. If the world changes then the best arguments will be found to justify the state of things. -arguments shmarguments...


:lol: :clap:
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144
User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
 
Posts: 39365
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
Location: dystopia
About me: Now with 50% less ranting!

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby pErvinalia » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:29 am

Does anyone want to summarise his argument? I can't really hear what he's saying on my laptop speakers. It seems to be in mono, and bad mono at that.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144
User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
 
Posts: 39365
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
Location: dystopia
About me: Now with 50% less ranting!

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Hermit » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:51 am

pErvin wrote:Does anyone want to summarise his argument?
Summary: The UCLA supports freedom of speech, no matter who is doing the speaking.

I replied to Coito's general drift here already. No point repeating myself. He'll just ignore it again, and maybe start yet another thread on why Nazis should be allowed to spread their anti-human-rights propaganda.

His support for letting Nazis speak freely is rather puzzling, given what they do to freedom of speech every single time they gain power.
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 16865
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby laklak » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:03 am

Doesn't matter what they would do if they gained power, not what Communists would do, or Dominionists, or whoever. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" Seems pretty clear to me.

But then again, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." seems pretty clear to me too, and look at the arguments THAT will get you into.
User avatar
laklak
 
Posts: 12659
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:07 pm
Location: on the beach, drinking a beer
About me: My preferred pronoun is "Massah"

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Hermit » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:30 am

laklak wrote:Doesn't matter what they would do if they gained power, not what Communists would do, or Dominionists, or whoever. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" Seems pretty clear to me.

But then again, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." seems pretty clear to me too, and look at the arguments THAT will get you into.
All crystal clear. No doubt about it. Whether all is right is another matter.
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 16865
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Forty Two » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:24 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:Who gives a shit. If the world changes then the best arguments will be found to justify the state of things. -arguments shmarguments...


I suppose anyone who cares about the issue of free speech, if that's not you, then so be it.

If arguments are meaningless, then why participate in discussion boards addressing political and social issues. This threat is in "Serious Stuff" and "General Serious Discussion & Philosophy." If your position is that argument is irrelevant, then what contribution do you have to the discussion? Or...were you just expressing your distaste for the topic? If so, noted.
If you ever feel sad, remember that somewhere in the world there is a fat kid dropping his favorite ice cream cone.

I'm not Steve Bannon. I'm not trying to suck my own c**k. - Anthony Scaramucci.
User avatar
Forty Two
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Forty Two » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:27 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:Society, via the law, has no right to stop anyone from saying anything, or sanction anyone for doing anything, because you ain't the boss of me - you ain't even my real Dad.


Incisive.

I can clearly see how the arguments of the ACLU in defending the right to free speech of members of the Nazi Party is clearly refuted by the declaration that "you an't the boss of me" and "you ain't my real dad." The sarcastic implication that the ACLU's position is that the law cannot stop people from doing anything is just icing on the cake. Brilliant.
If you ever feel sad, remember that somewhere in the world there is a fat kid dropping his favorite ice cream cone.

I'm not Steve Bannon. I'm not trying to suck my own c**k. - Anthony Scaramucci.
User avatar
Forty Two
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Forty Two » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:28 pm

pErvin wrote:
Sean Hayden wrote:Who gives a shit. If the world changes then the best arguments will be found to justify the state of things. -arguments shmarguments...


:lol: :clap:


Not surprised at all that you would applaud that. It's your kind of argument.
If you ever feel sad, remember that somewhere in the world there is a fat kid dropping his favorite ice cream cone.

I'm not Steve Bannon. I'm not trying to suck my own c**k. - Anthony Scaramucci.
User avatar
Forty Two
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Forty Two » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:29 pm

pErvin wrote:Does anyone want to summarise his argument? I can't really hear what he's saying on my laptop speakers. It seems to be in mono, and bad mono at that.


Well, it's old. Just turn up the speakers and have a listen. Trying to summarize anything for you is just a bad road to go down. You just start playing games and picking fights. If you're interested, just listen to it and address points you find interesting, relevant or rebuttable.
If you ever feel sad, remember that somewhere in the world there is a fat kid dropping his favorite ice cream cone.

I'm not Steve Bannon. I'm not trying to suck my own c**k. - Anthony Scaramucci.
User avatar
Forty Two
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Forty Two » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:41 pm

Hermit wrote:
pErvin wrote:Does anyone want to summarise his argument?
Summary: The UCLA supports freedom of speech, no matter who is doing the speaking.

I replied to Coito's general drift here already. No point repeating myself. He'll just ignore it again, and maybe start yet another thread on why Nazis should be allowed to spread their anti-human-rights propaganda.

His support for letting Nazis speak freely is rather puzzling, given what they do to freedom of speech every single time they gain power.


If you're referring to me, (a) I did not ignore the post to which you linked - I don't respond to every post, nor do I have to, nor did it raise a point to which I thought argument was necessary. I had posted the video and link regarding A Man for All Seasons, particularly the quote about cutting down the law to get at the Devil. You went on a long discussion, much of which I agreed with or took no serious issue with. (b) it does not address the issue at hand, which is specifically to discuss the arguments of the ACLU ,and not my arguments in particular. if you're interested in that discussion, then participate. However, there is no need to start this out by insulting me and making this about a fight between you and I, which I am hard pressed to understand why you're so combative, anyway.

Maybe I will start another thread about a different aspect of the topic. There is no shortage of space for threads, and there is no need for you to participate. Do you have some interest in seeing the number of threads regarding freedom of speech, a very timely topic given the mountain of news reports and events involving freedom of speech and attacks on it? If so, why? And, what business is it of your what other people talk about?

And, people do have a right to spread anti-human rights opinions, don't they? Or, should fundamentalist Muslims be gagged by the law? What about a group that advocates traditional gender roles for men and women? What about groups that advocate against homosexuality? What about groups that advocate against Democracy on a variety of grounds? What about those that advocate in favor of euthanasia (even without express consent of the euthanized)? What about those who advocate for the merits of infanticide? Abortion?

Or what about those that advocate for limitations on the human right of freedom of speech? Do people who advocate against freedom of speech - a recognized human right under the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights - have a right of free speech, or are they advocating their "anti-human rights" propaganda and should be silenced?

I find it odd that you are unable to puzzle out why a person would be in favor of the same rights of freedom of speech for those who would, if given the chance, take away those rights. I mean, I recognize and support the right of Progressive SJWs to advocate against freedom of speech, and rather than suggest that they should be censored and prohibited from advocating against individual human rights of free expression for certain people, I recognize that people have the right to freely express the desire and political view that individual human rights (like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of the press) should be limited or eliminated. For example, some fundamentalist Muslims believe that only Islam should be allowed, and if those fundamentalists got into power, they would certainly take away other people's freedom of speech and freedom of and from religion. However, they, nevertheless, have the right to express their views. Don't you agree? Is that position really "puzzling" to you?
If you ever feel sad, remember that somewhere in the world there is a fat kid dropping his favorite ice cream cone.

I'm not Steve Bannon. I'm not trying to suck my own c**k. - Anthony Scaramucci.
User avatar
Forty Two
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby Forty Two » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:02 pm

"If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind." - J.S. Mill
If you ever feel sad, remember that somewhere in the world there is a fat kid dropping his favorite ice cream cone.

I'm not Steve Bannon. I'm not trying to suck my own c**k. - Anthony Scaramucci.
User avatar
Forty Two
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.

Re: Nazis Have a Fundamental Right to Free Speech..or they d

Postby laklak » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:49 pm

Hermit wrote:All crystal clear. No doubt about it. Whether all is right is another matter.


What is this "right" you speak of?
User avatar
laklak
 
Posts: 12659
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:07 pm
Location: on the beach, drinking a beer
About me: My preferred pronoun is "Massah"

Next

Return to General Serious Discussion & Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests