Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Atheism

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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Seth » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:25 am

Rum wrote:The regimes Seth is referring to were essentially societies which had deified their leaders. They replaced fictional gods with deadly killers. They replaced religious dogma with political dogma and they were in effect Theocracies where unorthodoxy was and punishable by death.
You are absolutely right, and absolutely nothing has changed with Atheists since then. It's still a religion of intolerance, hatred and ignorance.
Animavore is right. Rational atheism has no need or reason to organise politically except potentially to fight persecution.
Ah, if that were only so. Unfortunately for everyone, Atheists insist on sticking their noses into things that are none of their business for no better reason than that they prefer their religious dogma to somebody else's.
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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:48 am

Tell that to the religious dudes who come to the door to spread the 'good news', or the religious organisations dipping their noses in the political trough, etc. Atheists don't forsake a right to an opinion just because we don't accept the authority of this, that or any person's godling.

You come over as being pissed at people for not giving the right amount of respect to religion (whatever that is). Isn't it time you dealt with that and moved on?

:tea:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Hermit » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:17 pm

Seth wrote:You are absolutely right, and absolutely nothing has changed with Atheists since then. It's still a religion of intolerance, hatred and ignorance.
Try to control your drool, baby. Mum must be getting quite tired of still having to wash your bibs at your age.

Now, back in the real world of militant atheism:
The phantom menace of militant atheism

Nick Cohen
The Observer, Sunday 7 September 2014

My family went into central London last week. After they'd gone, I found myself checking the web for reports of bomb blasts. Absurd and paranoid of me, of course. Rationally, I know that a motorist is more likely to kill you than a terrorist. Ever since Iraq, I have also known that the intelligence services' "threats" can be imaginary. But I know this, too, and so does everyone else: if a bomb explodes, no one will think that a "militant atheist" has attacked his or her country. No one will mutter: "I wonder if someone has taken this god delusion argument too far." Or: "Atheists should have known that violent words lead to violent deeds."

The police don't send undercover agents into sceptic societies and parliament doesn't pass emergency laws to combat atheist violence. Fanatics threaten European Muslims if they abandon their faith but no atheist will attack them if they keep it. No one thinks that atheists threaten the lives of their fellow citizens anywhere in the west.

And yet across what passes for the intelligentsia, moral equivalence holds sway. There is militant religion on one side and militant atheism on the other. We've no obligation to make a choice between them. Indeed, we should devote our energies to attacking atheism rather than religion. You'd never guess it from the way believers and conventional intellectuals throw the term around, but "militant atheism" has a specific meaning. Marxist-Leninists, who persecuted all faiths whenever they assumed dictatorial power, were authentic militants. If you want to see militant atheism today, look at China, which sends supporters of Falun Gong to its black jails and bulldozes Catholic churches.

If you were foolish enough to take the west's religious apologists at their word, you'd think that atheists were proposing the same pogroms here. Their victimhood takes two malign forms. First and most prominently, the Christian right is rallying opposition to equality with the cry that the "intolerance of aggressive secularism", in the words of the communities secretary, Eric Pickles, is threatening faith. You get a taste of the hysteria on the right when you discover that the cause of the anger was a court ruling that a local council could not include Church of England prayers in its formal meetings. (As a public body, it had to respect the views of councillors and voters of other faiths or none.)

To a large element in modern conservatism, equal treatment for all is nothing less than the "aggressive intolerance" of Christianity, as is the legal requirement that hotel owners cannot ban gay couples from their rooms just as landlords once banned blacks, dogs and Irish from theirs. Do not underestimate the danger of their wails. One day, they could encourage a future Conservative government to repeal the Human Rights Act.

An intellectual climate, which is so pervasive that you can be forgiven for not noticing its strangeness, reinforces the persecution complex. Across left and right, in the BBC, academia and the supposedly serious press, atheism and "aggressive secularism" are attacked as a matter of course. When they are at their crudest, intellectuals (and I am using that term crudely too) uphold moral equivalence by claiming that atheists and humanists mirror the behaviour of religious believers. As atheists have nothing in common beyond an inability to believe in a god or an assortment of gods, the argument comes down to a critique of the minority of atheists who decided that, what with 9/11, Hindu nationalism and genuinely militant strains of Christianity and Judaism, the times required us to dispense with politeness.

The occasional dogmatism that followed apparently makes atheism "like a religion". It's not a charge I'd throw around if I were seeking to defend faith. When people say of dozens of political and cultural movements from monetarism to Marxism that their followers treat their cause "like a religion", they never mean it as a compliment. They mean that dumb obedience to higher authority and an obstinate attachment to dogma mark its adherents.

Meanwhile, I'm losing count of and patience with the apologists who tell me there would be no morality without religion. The failure of the serious press and BBC to question this is as shocking as it is depressing. We are almost 150 years on from the moment in 1867 when Matthew Arnold heard the sea of faith's "melancholy, long, withdrawing roar" on Dover Beach. Are religious writers suggesting mid-Victorian Britain was a more moral country in its treatment of women, homosexuals and the poor?

Few dare maintain that immorality has increased as religious observance has collapsed. Instead, they say that everyone's morality, whether they are religious or not, is rooted in our common Christian culture, or our common Judaeo-Christian culture or, as an opponent in debate told me last year, our common Judaeo-Christian-Islamic culture. Forget if you can that there is much in religious culture that is immoral, not least a willingness to slaughter each other, and consider that if everyone is religious then no one is religious; religion is emptied of meaning and just becomes a vague cultural inheritance, like driving on the left or letting off fireworks on bonfire night.

The bad faith of religious apologists is best seen in their theological emptiness. Scour their writings and you'll be hard pressed to find the one honest argument true believers from earlier ages would have recognised: you must reject atheism to save your soul. In my experience of intellectual London, those who shout loudest against militant atheism do not believe themselves. Faith isn't for our sort. We need it to discipline the lower orders and keep the natives happy.

Since 9/11, western intellectuals have had a choice. They could have taken on militant religion, exposed its texts, decried its doctrines and found arguments to persuade young British men not to go to Syria and slaughter "heretics". But religious fanatics might have retaliated. Instead, they chose the safe option of attacking the phantom menace of militant atheists, who would never harm them. Leaving all philosophical and moral objections aside, they have been the most awful cowards.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by cronus » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:32 pm

Nihilism. Weakness. You've got to take the engine. With the status quo we are stuffed. Prayer is a excuse for business as usual when every indicator on the bridge says we are heading straight into a full on biosphere collapse. You don't see the models I've seen and you don't want to. A five or ten year trace where the cloud cover on Earth dissipates and the oceans really do begin to boil away. :coffee:
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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Hermit » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:48 pm

Your lyricism makes all the scenarios you paint look so idyllic. Can you send an autographed set to me please?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by cronus » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:55 pm

Hermit wrote:Your lyricism makes all the scenarios you paint look so idyllic. Can you send an autographed set to me please?
I must admit to being a driving force for the sad exodus around here. My pessimism wearies me and so hand me your revolver? :read:
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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Hermit » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:07 pm

Scumple wrote:
Hermit wrote:Your lyricism makes all the scenarios you paint look so idyllic. Can you send an autographed set to me please?
I must admit to being a driving force for the sad exodus around here. My pessimism wearies me and so hand me your revolver? :read:
I'd be happy to oblige, but I can't. There are good reasons why I don't own a firearm of any sort. It would enable me to possibly do something rash and irreversible. What would that do to the state of mind of my daughter and my siblings? And who will feed my cat?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Seth » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:42 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:Tell that to the religious dudes who come to the door to spread the 'good news', or the religious organisations dipping their noses in the political trough, etc. Atheists don't forsake a right to an opinion just because we don't accept the authority of this, that or any person's godling.

You come over as being pissed at people for not giving the right amount of respect to religion (whatever that is). Isn't it time you dealt with that and moved on?

:tea:
I'm not pissed at anyone, I'm merely pointing out what a bunch of hypocritical asses "militant Atheists" happen to be. A very unpleasant group to be around in my experience because they not only want to, but feel justified in imposing their secularism on anyone and everyone else around them just so they don't have to have their precious Wa disturbed by other people's free expression of religion.

Atheists are, in my long, long experience, one of the most intolerant and hateful religious groups on the planet. Not quite as bad as militant Muslims, but I think that may only be (as Stalin et al showed) a matter of not being in power. I don't trust that Atheists, given political power and control, would do anything substantially different from what Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot did in the name of atheism (among other dogmas).
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:25 pm

Secularism isn't dirty, religion-excluding word. Secularism is a principle which has religious freedom built in and can be embraced by the religious and non-religious alike. You seem rather intent on turning 'atheism' and 'secularism' into pejorative while painting the non-religious as morally bankrupt, totalitarian, baby butchers.

So, as far as you're concerned, what is it about somebody being a member of a religion which makes them inherently more trustworthy and tolerant than an atheist or secularist?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Animavore » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:25 pm

Obvious trolling is obvious. Don't feed.
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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:28 pm

Perhaps. We'll see.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Seth » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:09 am

Brian Peacock wrote:Secularism isn't dirty, religion-excluding word.
It depends on who's using it and in what context. In many cases it is exactly that. It describes a religion-hating, intolerant attitude on the part of small-minded people who simply cannot mind their own business and let other people do what they have a constitutionally protected right to do, which is express religion in the public sphere.
Secularism is a principle which has religious freedom built in and can be embraced by the religious and non-religious alike.
Like many other principles, it can, and is misused as a tool of intolerant oppression by petty jerks who think that a Nativity scene in a public park constitutes "establishment" of a state religion when what it actually is is an open expression of religious belief by members of the community (not the government) that anyone who doesn't believe is not obliged to view or worship at. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment cannot be used as a weapon against public displays of religious sentiment or belief even when it occurs on public property, so long as the controlling agency is non-discriminatory in allowing displays of religion (or irreligion) by anyone who wishes to make such an expression. That is neither an "establishment" nor the favoring of one religion over another. If, as often happens, nobody of a a different faith wishes at that particular season to ask permission to put up a religious display of their own, that fact cannot be used to bootstrap an Atheist argument that the local government is "favoring" or "advancing" one religion over another. It's hardly the government's concern that no Buddhist or Satanist or other group wishes to put up a display. In fact for the government to even attempt to analyze the "message" found in, for example, a Nativity scene is outside of the government's authority under the First Amendment as illegal and unconstitutional content-based discrimination, which does something that, like "advancing" a specific religion, is just as unconstitutional, and that is the "inhibiting" of a religion AND inhibiting free speech.

The government is required by Supreme Court precedent (the "Lemon" test) to remain strictly content-neutral when it comes to the use of public property in the exercise of free speech, which happens to include speech about religious belief.

Thus, the proper response to a complaint about a Christmas Nativity scene by some intolerant Atheist for any local government agency that oversees the use of public property by members of the public, to whom the property belongs, is to say "It's an exercise in freedom of speech and we are prohibited from discriminating based on the content of that speech. If you want to erect a competing display of free speech, here are the locations and rules under which such displays may be erected." And then the government should ignore the idle threats of assholes like the Freedom From Religion Foundation and their baseless threats and intimidation.
You seem rather intent on turning 'atheism' and 'secularism' into pejorative while painting the non-religious as morally bankrupt, totalitarian, baby butchers.


No, not "non-religious," just militant Atheist assholes. An entirely different group. Most non-religious people, and indeed most religious people are content to simply tolerate and ignore the peaceable expressions of religious belief by others because they understand that if that speech can be suppressed, so can their own.
So, as far as you're concerned, what is it about somebody being a member of a religion which makes them inherently more trustworthy and tolerant than an atheist or secularist?
Experience. No one is "inherently" more or less trustworthy or tolerant than another, but Atheists are demonstrably LESS tolerant and trustworthy than most of the religious people I know. That's why I distinguish between non-religious people who might qualify by definition as "a-theistic" and Atheists, who are members of an intolerant, morally-bankrupt, totalitarian baby-butchering religious cult that's a scourge on the planet. One is not the other in my estimation.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Emotional Underpinnings of Organised Real Militant Athei

Post by Animavore » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:09 am

:hilarious:

Priceless.
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