Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:39 am

I dont think you answered why it persists in society. You seemed unwilling to commit without the precise breakdown between nature vs nurture.

And the answer to the last question doesn't make sense. What does "don't be an idiot" mean??
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:55 am

Dont be idiot about it .. do not act like idiot. Miss Anita acts like idiot. Sexists acts like idiots. Bystanders, taking one or the other side, act like idiots. etc
Other people read this and may change their behaviours because of evidence presented someone can formulate arguments convincing them (making them believe) of something. We can simply say .. dont be an idiot because that is the real problem not percentages.
To me the problem are not percentages. These depends on factors beyond possibilities to analyse. That solves it for me.

Why it persists? Because people act like idiots. Why magnets work? Why are people idiots? Because neurons fire beyond their control and because they have prejudices and because they do not think much and because they are ignorant .. On basic level, and I noted that already, its about spotting abnormal and judging it or commenting on it. So if someone's gaming friends are males, their friends are also males, and female enters, it gets noticed and commented on, often acting like idiots. Game development only mirrors, with latency, what is happening in gaming community, society in general.

The state of game development in Africa - http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/2648 ... Africa.php

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:04 pm

Ok then. I'll wait untill someone who understands that can translate it for me..
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:38 pm

Indeed, let someone translate .. why racism persists in society? because that is similar question. What can be said about that?

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by JimC » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:10 pm

Some of the words in the last two posts make sense, if taken individually...
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:56 pm

lol adult, intelligent and educated person asks: Why racism/sexism exists? and expects answer. How does that make sense? Makes sense when asked by 11 year old.

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:58 pm

You don't seem to understand the purpose of *discussion* forums. It's to have discussion, not provide *answers*.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:27 am

Indeed, the purpose if this forum seems to be chit-chat. And indeed I did not know that. Do you have some kind of mission statement? Rationalia, we are here to chit-chat. I would not register.

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:33 am

I really don't understand you. All discussion forums are for DISCUSSION. We have been discussing the reasons for sexism in video games and wider society. There has been some chit-chat, but there's been plenty of more rigorous discussion. The fact that the reasons aren't clear-cut is irrelevant to whether you can have a reasoned discussion on a subject.

You haven't contributed anything, so I'm not sure what sort of forum you are looking for. One where you don't contribute anything at all? What's the fucking point of that? :think: Why not just give reasoned responses in a form of English that the majority of people can understand? If you feel yourself wanting to whinge instead of contribute meaningfully, then just step away from the thread. No one is making you post.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:26 am

What? You may speak English but lol I contributed nothing?
tuco wrote:Because it persists in society and because it "works" or perhaps rather because its believed to work.

This is my standard entry on the issue:

Video: Sexism and sexuality in games
"Are we requiring the female protagonist to work harder and sell more in order to prove herself?" asks Dragon Age lead writer David Gaider, in this GDC 2013 video about sexism and sexuality in games, free courtesy of GDC Vault.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/1945 ... _games.php

----
So what's going on: is the video game industry progressing - or regressing - when it comes to female representation?
Not sure here. I think it just reflects, more or less, what is going on in society so the question is broader.
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tuco wrote:I would guess those involved in gaming care. As why is this of any interest, Mr Gaider, as developer, has some insight to it. If for anything, for business purpose. How do we design our game? Who is our target audience? How do they react to what we create? etc .. all this has, well not really "life" implications, but business implications at least.

btw "get life" is internet meme right? that would be interesting topic in itself, what it means "to get life". just to note the obvious, anyone posting here has life, that is unless there are bots posting here.
----------
tuco wrote:Creating Your Fantasy Self
An Analysis of Ethnicity in Character Creators in Computer Fantasy RolePlaying Games
- http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/di ... TEXT01.pdf

via

Options for Ethnicity in Character Creators, Part 1: Race in Games
- http://gamasutra.com/blogs/FridaSvensso ... _Games.php
An argument is that having a determined, for example, Black human race will help strengthen the presence of different ethnicities in the game world. A few of the interviewees were on the same track: “It will help to "normalize" various ethnicities instead of everyone choosing a "default" white human and then making "exotic" character variations.” But the majority of the people interviewed had a negative stance about having several human races, saying that it would be an easy way to implement racism and stereotyping, dismiss the need for characters of color in the game world, and for the player base to ignore the non-White playable characters. “The differences are too complicated and ultimately too marginal for it to represent any significant dynamics among different human races.” We agree that the danger of having several playable human races with different abilities specific to their race is indeed that it may subconsciously reinforces stereotypes and creates prejudice towards real-life ethnicities.
-------
tuco wrote:I do not have answers to such questions. I am mere observer perhaps commentator. As for stores .. thank Lord! Its a chore. If all stores were for females I'd have one more reason not to go there ;)

The "madness" will end when, couple of quick options: a) those who feels so strongly that they campaign for their cause will have no reason to feel so strongly b) when it becomes socially unacceptable to feel so strongly c) never d) ...

There is difference, in my opinion, between people/groups like those around Mr Gaider (Bioware) who make living making games and perhaps try to incorporate some of their lets say personal philosophy in them and Miss Sarkeesian (gamers gate) who makes living stirring controversy. Personally I do not pay much attention to the latter.

My interest in this is as in other phenomena in our societies. This is dynamic stuff, unlike laws of nature.
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tuco wrote:I see it, the public discourse about sexism, as a trend or social dynamics. Just like sexual revolution. It (also) involves talking, publicizing, about issues not talked about before.

Today, these people - be it gay rights or women rights or black lives/rights etc - basically minorities in fact or alleged, get their say publicly (over internet). And they do so. Just like other groups defend their interests so do these people. Asking when will it stop .. when society will stop paying attention to it, will conclude that there is no basis for these people to be vocal and demand. As of now it seems there is at least controversy when it comes to such consensus in society. And as noted before Miss Sarkeesian, for example, has only as much room as society gives her. I dont give her much. She can have her say, its her right, but .. cool story sis.

---
edit: there is not movement, I know of, for CEO lives/rights for example. Why that is right? Because there is no bases, society concludes. If anything those fuckers should be deprived like they deprive others.
-----
tuco wrote:I already explained that a) something is a problem IF <insert group> considers that something as problem b) how big problem something is is determined how much room society gives it. a) is beyond our individual control while b) is not.

Now what is the problem here? What "truth" are we looking for here? I do not get it. Some people are vehemently vocal about something, other people vehemently disagree and yet another people do not give much fuck. Normal state of society. What is the problem?

-----

tuco wrote:Indeed, but when it comes to gaming industry or shopping mall, how can we tell?

Lets assume Person A will claim: There is disproportionally small number of females involved in video games, and it is because females are discriminated there. What can Person B say about this claim? Show your working out. Hence the problem I am pointing to. Its possible to talk about this indefinitely without reaching consensus because evidence is lacking. All there can be said is what you said. Significant .. OK lets assume we have number. We know for fact that females like to and want to play games as much as males do. Its 50/50 This is hypothetical consensus which will not be reached here. What now?

I wonder, how much are those debating this involved in video games themselves. I've been involved (deeply lol) for 30 years. The environment is, from my experience, as hostile to females as other environments populated mostly by one sex. Sure males are more aggressive or competitive so that translates to form but essence is the same. Anything abnormal gets noted and lets say judged. That seem natural. So what should be done about this? What are we debating? What kind of consensus we are looking for here? That is what I am asking. That is my point.

Other people read this and may change their behaviours because of evidence presented someone can formulate arguments convincing them (making them believe) of something. We can simply say .. dont be an idiot because that is the real problem not percentages.

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tuco wrote:I do not see anyone debating sexist aspects of video games here.

This is second post here:
rEvolutionist wrote:Without reading the OP, let alone the article or anything on this topic, or knowing very much about this subject at all, I'd expect it's because males overwhelmingly make up the majority of gamers. And gamers are probably more likely to be detached from real life and real women, and hence think of women as fictional characters to begin with. That last idea may not be based on any evidence at all..
Basically .. I know nothing but I think .. cool story bro. That was really useful. Like asking random stranger. And when I cite relevant information, you for example and as I noted already completely disregard it and carry on with what you .. think.

Shall I quote other posts? On those other aspects.

-----
tuco wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
tuco wrote:Many and none of your concern. Cmon, does it really take so much of whatever to act like adult, intelligent and educated? If the main or sole purpose of starting threads with issues is to just chit-chat about it, then well not much for me to do but recognize it. I will not adopt it however as its not my way so to say.
It's unclear to me what you're trying to say.

If you have a contribution to the issue being discussed, then nobody is stopping you from making it.

Feel free to frame the issue or question as you understand it or see fit. We can discuss that, if you like.
My contribution to the issue is to note that what you (and others, its not personal) demonstrate is either: a) not close to reality b) not on topic c) irrelevant d) bickering e) etc Simply put, my contribution is to put the debate on course, proper course of adult, intelligent and educated debate. I posted 2 materials with data/insight. Got zero response. Figured that data/insight is not sought here and proceeded to put to you (and others) on course.
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tuco wrote:I've already answered that. Seriously. Except for the last. I think its ugly, that is why I said .. dont be idiot (about it) .. when in environment where status implies power and/or privilege. This goes for minority and majority alike.

Just a side note, sometimes its let say easier in virtual world simply because its possible to hide, not make public respectively, identity. Humans cant help neurons from firing in pre-determined ways. In this sense, less personal information the better. I do understand that humans tend to send signals, demonstrating their personality, on purpose but I am not so sure it serves well for certain purposes. I do not care if someone on my team/clan/community is fat, black, transsexual who admires Seth. I care about performance and interaction. Neurons however do their own thing regardless.

-----
tuco wrote:Dont be idiot about it .. do not act like idiot. Miss Anita acts like idiot. Sexists acts like idiots. Bystanders, taking one or the other side, act like idiots. etc
Other people read this and may change their behaviours because of evidence presented someone can formulate arguments convincing them (making them believe) of something. We can simply say .. dont be an idiot because that is the real problem not percentages.
To me the problem are not percentages. These depends on factors beyond possibilities to analyse. That solves it for me.

Why it persists? Because people act like idiots. Why magnets work? Why are people idiots? Because neurons fire beyond their control and because they have prejudices and because they do not think much and because they are ignorant .. On basic level, and I noted that already, its about spotting abnormal and judging it or commenting on it. So if someone's gaming friends are males, their friends are also males, and female enters, it gets noticed and commented on, often acting like idiots. Game development only mirrors, with latency, what is happening in gaming community, society in general.

The state of game development in Africa - http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/2648 ... Africa.php

--------

In comparison to other posters here I contributed nothing. I posted 3 relevant materials with data and insight. If I did not post anything else, it would be more than anyone here. I am not sure if you are not capable or not willing to engage in adult, intelligent and educated debate, but what you and others present here is fucking chit-chat: talk about trivial matters and/or inconsequential conversation. Basically, what comes to your mind you spit out. Fucking pathetic just like the mind.

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:10 am

Murdering the English language isn't "contributing". I'm sure in your head you thought you were making some point. The problem is, no one else can understand what that point is. When asked direct questions, you answer with non-sequiturs like "don't be idiot", whatever that is supposed to mean.

In any case, you seem to understand that we can discuss things without seeking definitive answers. If that's the case, then what the fuck are you constantly whinging about?!?
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:33 am

Here's the problem right here:
tuco wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
tuco wrote: Forty Two seem to be focused on Anita, who is stirring controversy, only stirring it further, which probably make Anita quite happy, to have audience. I do not care about Anita.
You were the first one to bring up Anita.
To make a point, not to focus on her (arguments). I started here with what I would call qualified lecture on the topic from lets say socially aware game developer. Who says .. 30% of those who play our (AAA) games are females so we try to accommodate them. Then Forty Two disregards this and proceeds to make claims about GTA to which you react etc etc. This is chit-chat, hence my agitation.
It's not fucking chit-chat. In case you haven't worked it out yet, 42 has a conservative view of gender issues (not that he would call himself conservative, but it's where his liberalism leads him), and I have a far more progressive view. So we are both trying to provide the reasoning for our respective positions. And it's not like the two of us are unique. This is a common debate regarding gender. Is it a social construct, and is that a good, bad or neutral thing? Conservatives feel safer in traditional systems and roles, so they instinctively get squirmy about suggestions that some traditional systems are more or less totally manufactured and aren't inherently valuable. Progressives don't give a fuck about traditional systems for the sake of tradition, and are happy to adjust their world view based on the opinions of those who feel socially dislocated by some bollocks tradition. These aren't opinions. These are clear ideological (and indeed neurological) differences. That's why 42 and I are always butting heads on so called "liberal" issues. To think it's chit-chat is, frankly, retarded.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:47 am

Its chit-chat, inconsequential conversation or talk about trivial matters. I this thread I can produce evidence, like I did regarding my contribution, but you can read too.

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:49 am

So discussing opposing ideas that come out of opposing ideologies is "chit-chat"??

And no, I can't read your evidence, as it isn't in English.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:56 am

I already noted your first post which is chit-chat post without doubt .. I know nothing (thus can contribute nothing) but I think (I chit-chat) .. lets look at other posters:
laklak wrote:Because if there were good looking female characters all the boyos would be wanking instead of playing.
macdoc wrote:
Is creating female video game characters too much work?
Too many breaks as they go wank in the john after working on her. :smoke:
VazScep wrote:
"Female bone structure is just different," says Joe Ubisoft. "Are there spiders in there? We just don't know."
— creeping horror (@redfivetwo)
:rofl:

I'd rather see the question asked "why does peurile derivative wank persist in the video games industry?", which I reckon covers all these games.
and I could go on and on quoting almost post here. Even VazScep who is capable of well informed and thought out posts cant be bothered. I guess s/he already recognized that this is just small talk, not adult, intelligent and educated debate.

Your remarks about my English keep me cool. My IQ stays 137 regardless of how my command of English is. I guess you speak 11 languages so you feel confident to criticize. Actually I guess you speak only English, hence the difficulty of your brain to comprehend anything out of norm.

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