The Lord of The Flies

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The Lord of The Flies

Post by Lozzer » Mon May 18, 2009 3:19 pm

I finished reading this book at 3am last night and I was much disturbed--both by the story itself and because of the inevitable entailment that I could relate entirely to the characters and some of the events (though in a completely different context). Everything that happens is almost a metaphor in itself, from the deaths of Simon and Piggy to talking head of a decapitated pig.

Simon's brutal death really resounded with me, he was the voice of reason and critical thinker and the soul of the human condition itself. The head of a boar spoke to him, urged him, threatened him but the words came from his own mouth--his bestial subconsciousness. The head is inanimate but he is the one who caricatures it; he is conceited that the monster is external but its not--the Lord of the Flies is Simon, the lord is every single human being.

Given the paranoia of the tribe, he becomes shunned when he openly concedes he doesn't believe in the beast which haunts the island--long before the Boar's head he postulates that it is they who are the beast. When he explores he finds that one of the many speculated monster (though there is only one beast, the imagination and hysteria of the group leads them to interpret every 'unexplainable' earthly noise or sight or hallucination as the same beast) which lay on the top of the mountain was just a crashed pilot who had been ensnared by his faulty parachute when he fell from his broken plane. Full of shock at the rotting corpse and the face of mortality, he lets his legs fly to the dissenting tribe of savages.

The tribe of savages, led by Jack the hunter, beat themselves into a fervour of animality--they become a pack of wolves guided by instinct. The head of the original tribe (Ralph) finds himself joining in alongside Piggy. Simon unknowingly runs into the ceremony, and is beaten, bitten and torn apart by the crowd--there is no voice of reason only the drive of hunger for blood. The next day Ralph and Piggy return to their own encampment. Full of denial and blocking of reality they convince themselves that they had evacuated the savage tribe, they "left early". This disgusts me, not because Simon was slaughtered but because I found myself enveloped with understanding for the fervour of the moment which led to the destruction of his life.

Anyone who has found solidarity in a group of people, who has founded posterity in the confidence of number and in intoxication will understand the pack behaviour which can lead to atrocities of physical and mental well being. It doesn't take long for one strong minded person to lose sense with all his individuality to say the least. His reason is corrupted as it naturally gives way to the loudest voice of authority, soon he inputs his own cry and animality is instilled in his blood. Reality is cut off under the sheer presser of animality. He becomes a wolf among wolves and a terror among the sheep. Fortunately no preplanned inflictions were ever followed through with action--as close as it may have came. Someone would have been hurt and I without a care. Consciousness makes itself known after a while and the body kicks back in to its usual routine. The rejection of such an experience comes shortly the next day, no such thing happened--no one wanted murder or blood or pain or claw.

The more one tries to detach himself from that certain event in the book, the more he becomes one with it. He becomes more and more human as he exculpates himself--for this reason I have chosen to accept my own human afflictions though I know it matters little.

Later in the story we see the murder of Piggy, a intelligent child but incredibly irritating--only so as he persistently injects reason when one rather ignore it. I shan't go into much detail about his death as I really rather not but there is further relations to be made in introspection. His death was predictable as he was so vulnerable. Fat, annoying, ill and slow he wasn't very appreciated (well, his glasses were). I felt sad at first, but then I came to the realisation that I was happy in a very sombre way. Piggy required responsibility, Ralph always had to care for him because of his asthma and bad vision. He was a detriment to the tribe. Before his death Piggy had finally stood up for himself, but his rhetoric resonated little with the savages. Piggy was the thinker of the tribe, he often made them feel terrible for their disregard and their less than benign actions. He was a metaphor for conciousness; ugly, responsible, resented, reasonable, honest and always dragging on and on. This is to say, that in their love of fervour and fun the dissenting tribe had killed their conciousness--they had eliminated their innocence.
I was happy that Piggy died, because he was a burden for Ralph and the other boys and in destruction he allowed them to get on with things.
I know what this means, I'm supposed to--I'm human.

By the end of the book, I forgot what Piggy's real name was just like the fictional boys. In a weird way Its like the author had communicated with mere type to reassure me that I'm human. And being human means being like those boys. But as I said, Its a very peculiar book indeed. I'm still trying to grasp all possible metaphors and what other dramas might mean to me. The Lord of the Flies is a statement of fact expressed through the medium of fiction and I don't think I'll ever be able to forget it without forgetting myself.

:-|
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Lozzer » Mon May 18, 2009 3:20 pm

Wow, Jesus Christ! Is that how much I wrote? I really shouldn't get carried away :hehe:
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Mon May 18, 2009 5:06 pm

It is a great book. I remember we read it in class back at school. The teacher then claimed that the allegory was more political, with Ralph representing western democracy, the choir representing communism and Piggy being the ordinary man in the street in the middle. I never really bought that at the time and I still don't. I think that theory came more from the time it was proposed - mid 70's, height of the cold war - than it did from actually reading the book! Everything was seen as an east-west allegory in those days, from Lord of the Rings to Black Beauty!

Personally, I think the allegory that Golding was aiming for was far simpler. Ralph represents the human wish for government and order, Jack and the choir are mans superstitious nature and Piggy is the voice of science and reason.
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Lozzer » Mon May 18, 2009 5:54 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:It is a great book. I remember we read it in class back at school. The teacher then claimed that the allegory was more political, with Ralph representing western democracy, the choir representing communism and Piggy being the ordinary man in the street in the middle. I never really bought that at the time and I still don't. I think that theory came more from the time it was proposed - mid 70's, height of the cold war - than it did from actually reading the book! Everything was seen as an east-west allegory in those days, from Lord of the Rings to Black Beauty!

Personally, I think the allegory that Golding was aiming for was far simpler. Ralph represents the human wish for government and order, Jack and the choir are mans superstitious nature and Piggy is the voice of science and reason.

Id hate to have read it at school. Compulsory reading takes all the interest out of the book itself.

That's a good synopsis but I think its just too simple. Golding wrote that man was prone to chaos due to his 'fallen' nature--though I just tend to interpret this as human nature as opposed to theological bullshit. I think I may have to read it again, because I really want to filter it for all its worth.
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Mon May 18, 2009 6:59 pm

Lozzer wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:It is a great book. I remember we read it in class back at school. The teacher then claimed that the allegory was more political, with Ralph representing western democracy, the choir representing communism and Piggy being the ordinary man in the street in the middle. I never really bought that at the time and I still don't. I think that theory came more from the time it was proposed - mid 70's, height of the cold war - than it did from actually reading the book! Everything was seen as an east-west allegory in those days, from Lord of the Rings to Black Beauty!

Personally, I think the allegory that Golding was aiming for was far simpler. Ralph represents the human wish for government and order, Jack and the choir are mans superstitious nature and Piggy is the voice of science and reason.

Id hate to have read it at school. Compulsory reading takes all the interest out of the book itself.

That's a good synopsis but I think its just too simple. Golding wrote that man was prone to chaos due to his 'fallen' nature--though I just tend to interpret this as human nature as opposed to theological bullshit. I think I may have to read it again, because I really want to filter it for all its worth.
It was only meant as a very brief synopsis, not an in depth analysis. I haven't read the book in over 25 years, so to do that would be a little hard. I take your point about the 'fallen man' thing - the rescue of Ralph by the sailor at the end could certainly be meant to symbolise some kind of heavenly intervention - the idea being that man cannot overcome his bestial nature without some holy skyhook.
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Lozzer » Mon May 18, 2009 7:11 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Lozzer wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:It is a great book. I remember we read it in class back at school. The teacher then claimed that the allegory was more political, with Ralph representing western democracy, the choir representing communism and Piggy being the ordinary man in the street in the middle. I never really bought that at the time and I still don't. I think that theory came more from the time it was proposed - mid 70's, height of the cold war - than it did from actually reading the book! Everything was seen as an east-west allegory in those days, from Lord of the Rings to Black Beauty!

Personally, I think the allegory that Golding was aiming for was far simpler. Ralph represents the human wish for government and order, Jack and the choir are mans superstitious nature and Piggy is the voice of science and reason.

Id hate to have read it at school. Compulsory reading takes all the interest out of the book itself.

That's a good synopsis but I think its just too simple. Golding wrote that man was prone to chaos due to his 'fallen' nature--though I just tend to interpret this as human nature as opposed to theological bullshit. I think I may have to read it again, because I really want to filter it for all its worth.
It was only meant as a very brief synopsis, not an in depth analysis. I haven't read the book in over 25 years, so to do that would be a little hard. I take your point about the 'fallen man' thing - the rescue of Ralph by the sailor at the end could certainly be meant to symbolise some kind of heavenly intervention - the idea being that man cannot overcome his bestial nature without some holy skyhook.
Yeah exactly, its also really theological in how all the boys regardless of their prior trifling became equal in tears and inferiority in face of the understanding sailor.
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by charlou » Tue May 19, 2009 3:20 am

I'd recommend rereading at different stages of your life, too ... say every five or ten years ... for the renewed perspective, both from your own point of view and that of the prevailing zeitgeist (as XC mentioned).

In fact, I think I'll give it another go ... it's been quite some time ...
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue May 19, 2009 4:25 am

Charlou wrote:I'd recommend rereading at different stages of your life, too ... say every five or ten years ... for the renewed perspective, both from your own point of view and that of the prevailing zeitgeist (as XC mentioned).

In fact, I think I'll give it another go ... it's been quite some time ...
I really ought to reread it too - along with a hundred other books. *sigh*
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Hermit » Tue May 19, 2009 6:56 am

Golding's "statement of fact" was that without the benevolent guidance of civilisation, here embodied by an officer of the British Navy, people will quickly and inevitably revert to an existence of tribal savagery. Golding seems to be pining for the glorious days of the 19th century, when Britain was thought of as spreading civilisation to the savage tribes by every British citizen "of worth", and the empire was at its peak despite its loss of the American colonies in the previous century.

Much like Malory's hearfelt regurgitation of Monmouth's Arthurian legend Lord of the Flies is a metaphor for perceived values that are said to have been lost due to the vicissitudes of history and/or the essential degeneracy of humanity. It is the product of nostalgia borne of appalling prejudice. Malory decried the vanishing of the values of the age of chivalry. (Surely, we know better than to long for the lost societies, their values and practices of that era). Golding created a variation upon the theme.

Yes, perhaps civilisation is but the slimmest of veneers covering our savage and / or instinctual heritage, but Golding fails to argue for that point of view. He only hints that this might be the case by way of illustration. The growth of civilisation itself is proof that it is not dependent on any one empirial power. It is a result of us transcending biological evolution in a way no other species has come close to. It may be a matter of two steps forward, one step back, but we will never relapse into a total, permanent state of savage tribalism.
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by charlou » Tue May 19, 2009 7:24 am

Seraph wrote: we will never relapse into a total, permanent state of savage tribalism.
I don't know about permanent, but a relapse into a total state of tribalism is not so unlikely, and could even be inevitable, unfortunately, if our population and environmental issues continue as they are. If we continue to consume at the rate we are, and if we continue to neglect finding and implementing radical measures to slow, ease and deflect a global resource disaster, I can envisage a future of dog eat dog tribalism ... and it won't be biological, but environmentally encultured ... and as time goes on, a memetic imperative.
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Hermit » Tue May 19, 2009 8:58 am

Charlou wrote:
Seraph wrote: we will never relapse into a total, permanent state of savage tribalism.
I don't know about permanent, but a relapse into a total state of tribalism is not so unlikely, and could even be inevitable, unfortunately, if our population and environmental issues continue as they are. If we continue to consume at the rate we are, and if we continue to neglect finding and implementing radical measures to slow, ease and deflect a global resource disaster, I can envisage a future of dog eat dog tribalism ... and it won't be biological, but environmentally encultured ... and as time goes on, a memetic imperative.
Yes, that is a distinct possibility. Environmental conditions caused by our own doing may just result in desperate behaviour that can most fittingly be described as savage and tribal, but I dont think that was what Golding meant to say at all. He, like Malory and Cervantes, thought that civilisation is lost when the values of the olden days are gone, begging the question how civilisation came about in the first place as well as failing to account for reasons why those values came to be rejected / ignored.
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by charlou » Tue May 19, 2009 10:06 am

Seraph wrote:
Charlou wrote:
Seraph wrote: we will never relapse into a total, permanent state of savage tribalism.
I don't know about permanent, but a relapse into a total state of tribalism is not so unlikely, and could even be inevitable, unfortunately, if our population and environmental issues continue as they are. If we continue to consume at the rate we are, and if we continue to neglect finding and implementing radical measures to slow, ease and deflect a global resource disaster, I can envisage a future of dog eat dog tribalism ... and it won't be biological, but environmentally encultured ... and as time goes on, a memetic imperative.
Yes, that is a distinct possibility. Environmental conditions caused by our own doing may just result in desperate behaviour that can most fittingly be described as savage and tribal, but I dont think that was what Golding meant to say at all. He, like Malory and Cervantes, thought that civilisation is lost when the values of the olden days are gone, begging the question how civilisation came about in the first place as well as failing to account for reasons why those values came to be rejected / ignored.
That may be so, Seraph Image .. I was responding only to the quoted portion of your post. Off topic, perhaps, but then ... is it?
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue May 19, 2009 2:26 pm

Seraph wrote:
Charlou wrote:
Seraph wrote: we will never relapse into a total, permanent state of savage tribalism.
I don't know about permanent, but a relapse into a total state of tribalism is not so unlikely, and could even be inevitable, unfortunately, if our population and environmental issues continue as they are. If we continue to consume at the rate we are, and if we continue to neglect finding and implementing radical measures to slow, ease and deflect a global resource disaster, I can envisage a future of dog eat dog tribalism ... and it won't be biological, but environmentally encultured ... and as time goes on, a memetic imperative.
Yes, that is a distinct possibility. Environmental conditions caused by our own doing may just result in desperate behaviour that can most fittingly be described as savage and tribal, but I dont think that was what Golding meant to say at all. He, like Malory and Cervantes, thought that civilisation is lost when the values of the olden days are gone, begging the question how civilisation came about in the first place as well as failing to account for reasons why those values came to be rejected / ignored.
Cervantes thought that?

In that case, why is Don Quixote one long joke at the expense of those that believe in a golden age of chivalry?
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Hermit » Wed May 20, 2009 12:02 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Cervantes thought that?

In that case, why is Don Quixote one long joke at the expense of those that believe in a golden age of chivalry?
My reading of it was as a parody of someone trying to apply values at a time when those values no longer applied. Mind you, I have not looked at the book for 30 or 35 years. I might form a different opinion if I read it now.

What do you make of my take on Golding's novel?
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Re: The Lord of The Flies

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Wed May 20, 2009 12:24 am

Seraph wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Cervantes thought that?

In that case, why is Don Quixote one long joke at the expense of those that believe in a golden age of chivalry?
My reading of it was as a parody of someone trying to apply values at a time when those values no longer applied. Mind you, I have not looked at the book for 30 or 35 years. I might form a different opinion if I read it now.

What do you make of my take on Golding's novel?
I mostly agree. Golding was always pessimistic about human nature - it runs through all of his books. You are entirely right in pointing out the rise of civilisation in the first place - and that what can happen once, can happen again. But Golding is right in recognising that tribalism lies close to the surface of modern, 'civilised' man. You only need to look at football crowds chanting, the constant welling up of nationalism, racism and sectarianism and the need for young people to identify themselves as part of a clique of one sort or another.

The religion that we so wish to rid the world of lies at the heart of this also - the need to belong and be accepted harks back to our tribal instincts. We are the only animal species yet known that is capable of transcending our instincts. But that transcendence is a learned phenomenon, the instincts themselves are innate in our genes and will not be beaten down easily.
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