Books that have shaped you

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Lozzer
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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Lozzer » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:56 pm

Manofnofaith wrote:
Lozzer wrote:And you seem to be presupposing that Hitchens is in fact a rightist, when no one particularly knows his political orientation--not even he knows it would seem.
You don't bring up a strawman to shoot down the argument of someone who is fighting other strawmen.
REBUTTAL FAIL.

I'm sorry, I'm not learned in fallacies, but I am learned in facetiousness. If you want to play that game, I'm quite happy to participate, just don't expect me to defend a losing battle in a far-Eastern region.
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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:33 pm

lordpasternack wrote:
Mr Bouquet wrote:wtf is a strawman in the first place i mean in a debating sense. :eddy:
When one in some way misrepresents one's opponent's argument, and attacks the misrepresented version, rather than the actual argument put forth one's opponent.

Eg. Person X puts forth a detailed argument on why abortion is ethical, and Person Y "rebuts" with vitriol on how infanticide is clearly immoral.

Person Y has misrepresented Person X's stance on abortion as a stance on killing full-term infants, and "rebutted" that misrepresented stance. They've erected a strawman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Also see HERE for other classic (and often very amusing) examples. :tup:
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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Thinking Aloud » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:45 pm

A couple of books spring to mind.

The Road Less Travelled was an interesting one which gave me a perspective on long-term relationships. I've not read it since I realised I was atheist, so I can't remember whether it was particularly theistic or not.

In recent times (hate to jump on the bandwagon) TGD definitely had an impact. It tipped me off the deistic fence with the "one god further" line, introduced me to Dawkins's other books, which led me to his website in search of the "evolve a line-creature" program, which led me to the RD forum and some serious discussions, which led me to TAF when I spotted "Thinking Aloud" in someone's signature, which led me to a couple of life-changing events.

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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Bella Fortuna » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:02 pm

For the subject of love and relationships, I was influenced by the books of John Gottman (I hate self-help books but there's a lot of truth in his, in my experience), and...

The Erotic Mind by Jack Morin

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Dreams of Love and Fateful Encounters: The Power of Romantic Passion by Ethel Person

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Among the Bohemians: Experiments in Living 1900-39 by Virginia Nicholson

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Uncommon Arrangements: Seven Marriages by Katie Roiphe

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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by ScholasticSpastic » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:26 am

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Fucking epic!

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Gave me nightmares through childhood- causing my parents to question their faith (if it's inspired by God, how can it give our son violent nightmares?) and forcing them to reconsider raising me a member of a religion. I'm lucky my parents weren't better at cherry-picking the non-threatening bits.

Though, technically, I have been shaped, at least temporarily, by every book I've ever slept on top of.
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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Transgirlofnofaith » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:28 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:
Mr Bouquet wrote:wtf is a strawman in the first place i mean in a debating sense. :eddy:
When one in some way misrepresents one's opponent's argument, and attacks the misrepresented version, rather than the actual argument put forth one's opponent.

Eg. Person X puts forth a detailed argument on why abortion is ethical, and Person Y "rebuts" with vitriol on how infanticide is clearly immoral.

Person Y has misrepresented Person X's stance on abortion as a stance on killing full-term infants, and "rebutted" that misrepresented stance. They've erected a strawman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Also see HERE for other classic (and often very amusing) examples. :tup:
GRRRRR... :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :Erasb:
JERK! Jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk. :? :shifty:

If you want to see a good example of a strange strawman, then click here. There's really no arguing with some people. They just twist around what you say for fun if they don't want to debate you.
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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:30 am

Manofnofaith wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:
Mr Bouquet wrote:wtf is a strawman in the first place i mean in a debating sense. :eddy:
When one in some way misrepresents one's opponent's argument, and attacks the misrepresented version, rather than the actual argument put forth one's opponent.

Eg. Person X puts forth a detailed argument on why abortion is ethical, and Person Y "rebuts" with vitriol on how infanticide is clearly immoral.

Person Y has misrepresented Person X's stance on abortion as a stance on killing full-term infants, and "rebutted" that misrepresented stance. They've erected a strawman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Also see HERE for other classic (and often very amusing) examples. :tup:
GRRRRR... :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :Erasb:
JERK! Jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk jerk. :? :shifty:

If you want to see a good example of a strange strawman, then click here. There's really no arguing with some people. They just twist around what you say for fun if they don't want to debate you.
I know. They are really annoying. Especially when they throw their own perverse failings back at you. I think such people should be pointed at in the street and laughed at. That makes the rest of us feel superior while pandering to their attention seeking behaviour - Win/Win! :biggrin:
A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by JOZeldenrust » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:17 pm

Paco wrote:Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance

READ IT NOW!
^this. Taught me to question the justification for what I considered knowledge.

1984 by George Orwell. I think Animal Farm is a better novel, but 1984 influenced me more. After reading this, I spent two miserable weeks trying to answer the question "If any justification of knowledge can be questioned, how can anyone ever differentiate between valid and invalid justifications?" The scenes in Minilove in particular, where O'Brian indoctrinates Smith, made a big impact.

The Name of the Rose, by Umberto Eco. Taught me that religion does have certain merits, in that it provides a community for otherwise vulnerable people, and it has been a very important, albeit imperfect and often immoral, caretaker of ideas. Taught me a lot about late medieval Europe, and most importantly, it taught me that even a rationally constructed idea can be mistaken, and it even got me thinking a little bit about how you could go about improving theories.

Philosophical Investigations, by Ludwig Wittgenstein. Got me thinking about language as a means of conveying information, and ways to rationally describe what happens when sentient beings communicate. Still working on that. (I'm starting college, Dutch Language and Culture, in September, and am really looking forward to the course "Structure of the Dutch language", by a woman who has done research into the significance of word order and emphasis.)

Beyond Sleep, by W.F. Hermans. A Dutch literary classic. The use of language in this novel is superb. I reckon it's useless to read a translation, though I would like to be proved wrong on that one. Hermans is an absolute master of the written word. The rhythm of every sentence is spot on, there isn't a single word that doesn't carry some meaning. I don't mean everything is symbolic - pretty much only the story itself is symbolic - just every word is required to give the sentence its meaning, in a logical sense. Yet Hermans isn't a minimalist per se. Some scenes are completely meaningless to the central idea, but they improve the pacing of the story, so they're there purely for aesthetic reasons. The central idea, however, has stuck with me: it's easy to hide from your own responsibility for your actions by relying on authorities, but it's intellectual laziness and it leads to worse results to boot.

Honourable mentions:

The Bible, traditional. Taught me that just because The Big Bully orders you to, that doesn't make it right to kill your own kid, that breast are like twin calves of the gazelle, and under her tongue are sweet wine and milk and honey, and how some pretty good ideas go really sour when they're considered to be moral absolutes.

The Odyssey, Homer (allegedly). It sort of explained to me how superstitions originate: in the Odyssey, there are numerous scenes where someone is bathed in heavenly charm, and everyone turns their head when that person enters the room. I've seen that happen. I'm pretty sure everyone has. I can understand why people would attribute something like that to the supernatural. I mean, you have to admit, when that happens, it's pretty fucking awesome. This caused me to self-identify as a religious ancient Greek for a while. I'd keep an eye out for omens and all that. Actually, I still do. Doesn't mean I believe any of it, by the way. It just so happens that it works even if you don't believe in it*.



*: credit for that one goes to Niels Bohr. One time, when welcoming another physicist into his home, the guest remarked on the horseshoe over the door something along the lines of "But Niels, you don't honestly believe in that sort of superstition?", to which Bohr replied "Ah, but this works even if I don't believe it."

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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Cwazy Cat Lady » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:14 am

The Selfish Gene
Guns, Germs and Steel
The Omnivore's Dilemma
E.M. Forster novels
David Sedaris


Some books and articles I read in college while studying history (by Hobsbawm, George Mosse and many many others) were all part of a really formative period for me---primary literature, of course, too... far too much to list here!

As much as I have loved the sciences, I do miss the discussion and exploration that I experienced in seminars on topics in European history... so satisfying!!!

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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Trolldor » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:31 pm

'Fast Food Nation'

I feel a little dirty when I eat chips now.
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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Sisifo » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:49 pm

I was a very lucky child and my parents would excuse me of going to school if I was reading... Anything. So I became a reading nymphomanus. Therefore the influence is more cocktails of books read in too young times than single shots. But I can point down:

All the original Burrough's Tarzan and Howard's Conan, being in my father's library, were my first adventure books, and they made me love the lone adventures and I guess those made me the adrenaline junkie I am now.

Kipling's books with special mention to "Kim" opened a liking for exotism that I look for everyday.

The Tao of Sex, read at 14, just before my first sexual intercourse influenced for years my sexuality. It took years to get rid of a tricks-based sexuality and let spontanity and ambience get into me.

The myth of Sisiphus by Camus helped me a lot to overcome the feeling of absurdity when one is a teenager.

I was introduced to scifi by Asimov, and it made me want to understand human systems and sociology which eventually made me become an economist.

I must tip the hat to Krugman and Friedman to let me understand the world in economic terms.

The Power of One is a lovely novel that changed my attitude towards life making it more relaxed and fun without losing the goals from focus.

There are more, of course, but would require long explanations of the circumstances...

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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Rum » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:36 pm

Sisifo wrote:I was a very lucky child and my parents would excuse me of going to school if I was reading... Anything. So I became a reading nymphomanus. Therefore the influence is more cocktails of books read in too young times than single shots. But I can point down:

All the original Burrough's Tarzan and Howard's Conan, being in my father's library, were my first adventure books, and they made me love the lone adventures and I guess those made me the adrenaline junkie I am now.

-snip-

.
Edgar Rice Burroughs books got me reading as a kid too. Being very visual I was attracted to the covers of the time (the mid 60s) by a guy called Frank Frazetta. Edgar Rice Burroughs, some people may not know, not only wrote the Tarzan original books but has whole series based on persistent worlds on Mars, Venus and Pelucida (inside the Earth). They were were fantastically imaginative and I read nearly all of the dozens and dozens he produced. In retrospect they were not really very well written.

It was those Frazetta covers which gave me the images which populated the stories and made me want to draw too - which I did and ended up going to Art school.

I also moved on to more serious science fiction a bit later and I would argue it was that genre which made me open minded enough to question things like religion and much of what perhaps many people take for granted.

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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by tattuchu » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:18 pm

Dude! I used to have Frazetta's art books. That was thirty years ago. Jesus Christ, hard to believe. I musta sold them off at some point, cuz I don't have them anymore :cry: Anyway, Rum, I had no idea you went to art school. Did anything come of it?

Lozzer, apologies in advance, but Catcher in the Rye had a profound influence on me :oops: It articulated everything I was feeling as a young man but didn't know how to put into words.
Years later, Good Omens, I think, jump-started my obsession with everything British :?
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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:58 pm

tattuchu wrote:Lozzer, apologies in advance, but Catcher in the Rye had a profound influence on me :oops: It articulated everything I was feeling as a young man but didn't know how to put into words.
Years later, Good Omens, I think, jump-started my obsession with everything British :?
My book report on "Catcher" started out with the line, "This is the stupidest book I've ever read. That includes Archie comics." The teacher gave me an "A" for being honest. Then I turned her on to Stranger in a Strange Land.
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Re: Books that have shaped you

Post by Animavore » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:49 am

The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care by Benjamin Spock.
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