An Open Letter from atheists to the Atheist Convention

[Gawdzilla Sama]

A reminder that the rule here is "play nice". Don't make me go blue on anybody, please. My supper's almost ready.

Well, exhale then.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

That's why it's an open letter, if you don't agree, don't sign, pretty simple really.

I disagree. "speak for atheism"? How the fuck does one do that?

I think you're just arguing for the sake of it really.

Well, you're wrong. I don't care for other people "speaking" for me. That letter is badly worded.

No-one is speaking for you, so either show how anyone was, or give up the claim. As for your claim of poor wording, I think most disagree with you there. Majority opinion tends to rule on matters like this.

I clarified that in a later post. And democracy doesn't dictate reality, as you well know.

[Gurdur]

I clarified that in a later post. And democracy doesn't dictate reality, as you well know.

Nether do you dictate reality, as you well know.

You made a claim that somehow the letter was supposed to be speaking for you. Various people showed you that wasn't true. Your claim is bogus.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I clarified that in a later post. And democracy doesn't dictate reality, as you well know.

Nether do you dictate reality, as you well know.

You made a claim that somehow the letter was supposed to be speaking for you. Variopus people showed you that wasn't true. Your claim is bogus.

You win.

[Gurdur]

.... see you have time for puns and insults but none for real discussion. I hope everyone here who signs your petition sees what they're getting mixed up with.
Not productive, to say the least.

Heh, projection. You were answered in full, you failed to deal with the answer.

By the way, it's dreadfully simple, and no such histrionics are needed: everyone can easily see the whole letter, its sentiments, links and context. Hyper-dramatising about "what they're getting mixed up with" is just that. Unproductive.

[Gurdur]

I clarified that in a later post. And democracy doesn't dictate reality, as you well know.

Nether do you dictate reality, as you well know.

You made a claim that somehow the letter was supposed to be speaking for you. Variopus people showed you that wasn't true. Your claim is bogus.

You win.

FIne, whatever. I guess we all know then no-one is claiming to speak for you, nor did the Letter make any such claim. Cheers.

[FedUpWithFaith]

Gurdur simply posted the letter and asked people to sign it if they agreed. If you don't agree, don't sign it.

This is always an interesting exercise when you ask people to do something simple like this Gurdur. I ask people to sign petitions and letters all the time, and I'm always a little perplexed at the people who spend all kinds of time explaining why they won't sign it, when they could simply just move on, or sign it in a fraction of the time it took them to go through all those explanations.

Perhaps those who dissent, like me, and think it does more harm than good to a cause or community they are part of, would like the same opportunity to dissuade others from participating as the OP is seeking to persuade them to join.

Likewise, I thought your petition against that Jewish display in California was ill-advised and probably hurt what you stand for more than helped. Although I told you this after the fact, I didn't harp on you about it because you'd already done it. I think I stated my reservations about it in one short sentence. But if you had solicited people here before the fact to sign your petition (if that had been possible), I would have vociferously objected not only from my perspective as an atheist but for your own good as a friend should.

Why not let people think for themselves? Why this need to convince or dissuade? Gurdur didn't try to convince anyone to sign it. He simply asked people if they agreed with it to sign it.

Good question and it deserves an answer. This is not a case of symmetrical persuasion. This is not an open debate. This is a solicitation to a community for actions outside the community. I've seen such petitions offered in many forums and communities. There is a presumption going in that we want to support each other, often uncritically, because that's what good neighbors do. Many times, I've seen people sign petitons they didn't bother to read, think through, or even agree with just to show solidarity. If enough people do it and say "great job" etc. as others did early on in this thread you get a bandwagon effect. So I applaud the dissent of the few others who spoke out, however gently, like Gawd and Poisson because it takes more guts than agreeing. But if you truly agree with Gurder, and really thought it through, and were open to dialogue about it, I have no problem with that. That's your right. Just as I have a right to make a stink about it.

Re: The petition. I did take a lot of flak for that petition, but they were only words. And, it did help our cause in the end and I'm glad I didn't take your advice.

You must not remember the incident correctly. You couldn't have taken my advice because by the time you told the forum you'd already done it.

I have no regrets doing it, it brought attention to the issue, and now our city council is being forced to deal with it next year. The press and the exposure got the FFRF involved. Not only that, but the Menorah issue was cited as factor when the city council of Monterey, our sister city insisted that the Catholic Church be prepared to pay the legal fees for an antipated lawsuit to re-erect a vandalized cross on public land. The church stood down, and decided to erect it on private property.

I'm glad it worked out for you in the end and I presume the atheist organization you were involved with at time that publicly disavowed you has re-embraced you. But it's not really germane to the point I was making. Right or wrong, I would have been justified in openly and honestly presenting my opinions to dissuade you in good faith had you solicited the forum in that action. (You didn't, you just told us after the fact what you'd done).

[J.A.Poisson]

One man's miserable user hack is another man's patronizing dismissal of the members of their board.

I've got your back buddy.

Also BWE's comment was not trolling, you goon.

[Gurdur]

I've got your back buddy.

Also BWE's comment was not trolling, you goon.

Heh. Calling names, making false accusations, deliberately altering quotes, do not make any case.

Getting desparate or something?

[maiforpeace]

I clarified that in a later post. And democracy doesn't dictate reality, as you well know.

Nether do you dictate reality, as you well know.

You made a claim that somehow the letter was supposed to be speaking for you. Variopus people showed you that wasn't true. Your claim is bogus.

Gurdur, people are asking some legitimate questions, and it's natural if they are concerned about the wording that they would ask you more before considering signing it. Maybe you might take a less confrontational approach and consider just answering their questions?

I agree the wording of the letter implies others share your views. Based on the responses in the thread following your letter, people do share your views so in fairness you do represent some people. I personally don't read it to say it represents all atheists, but if others do ask them exactly where it does this for them.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

One man's miserable user hack is another man's patronizing dismissal of the members of their board.

I've got your back buddy.

Also BWE's comment was not trolling, you goon.

Did you miss where I said, "play nice"?

[FedUpWithFaith]

.... see you have time for puns and insults but none for real discussion. I hope everyone here who signs your petition sees what they're getting mixed up with.
Not productive, to say the least.

Heh, projection. You were answered in full, you failed to deal with the answer.

By the way, it's dreadfully simple, and no such histrionics are needed: everyone can easily see the whole letter, its sentiments, links and context. Hyper-dramatising about "what they're getting mixed up with" is just that. Unproductive.

Where did you answer the questions in my original post to you? I must have missed it. I only recall seeing you insult my post, not offering dialogue about my concerns, or anybody else's for that matter.

[Gurdur]

......

You are completely free to start a counter-petition. So exactly what are you whining about?

It looks far more that you simply want to censor such efforts that you don't like from those you don't like rather than you wanting to debate them. Let's face it, you came in with only empty name-calling, a false sense of victimhood and a couple of false claims. But all in all, you're going to have to get used to the fact that we live in democracies, and people will have the right to do things you don't like -- no matter how much you attempt to censor them.

[J.A.Poisson]

Did you miss where I said, "play nice"?

No, that was me being nice.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Did you miss where I said, "play nice"?

No, that was me being nice.

If you need a 24-hour vacation to cool off I can arrange that easily.