Church of Scientology convicted of fraud in France

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Church of Scientology convicted of fraud in France

(Video at site above.)

By NICOLAS VAUX-MONTAGNY, Associated Press Writer Nicolas Vaux-montagny, Associated Press Writer – Tue Oct 27, 12:58 pm ET

PARIS – A Paris court convicted the Church of Scientology of fraud and fined it more than euro600,000 ($900,000) on Tuesday, but stopped short of banning the group's activities.

The group's French branch said it would appeal the verdict.

The court convicted the Church of Scientology's French office, its library and six of its leaders of organized fraud. Investigators said the group pressured members into paying large sums of money for questionable financial gain and used "commercial harassment" against recruits.

The group was fined euro400,000 ($600,000) and the library euro200,000. Four of the leaders were given suspended sentences of between 10 months and two years. The other two were given fines of euro1,000 and euro2,000.

Prosecutors had urged that the group be disbanded in France and fined euro2 million. A law that was briefly on the books this year prevented the court from going so far as to disband the French branch of Scientology in Tuesday's verdict — though it could have taken the lesser step of shutting down its operations.

However, the court did not do so, ruling that French Scientologists would have continued their activities anyway "outside any legal framework."

A spokeswoman for the French branch of Scientology, Agnes Bron, said the verdict was "an Inquisition of modern times," a reference to efforts to rout out heretics of the Roman Catholic Church in centuries past.

"It's really all bark and no bite," said the spokesman of the Church of Scientology International, Tommy Davis. "The church will emerge victorious on appeal."

Speaking by telephone from New York, Davis said the Church of Scientology was prepared to take the case to the European Court of Human Rights.

The head of a French association that helps victims of sects called the verdict "intelligent."

"Scientology can no longer hide behind freedom of conscience," Catherine Picard said.

The Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology, founded in 1954 by the late science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, has been active for decades in Europe, but has struggled to gain status as a religion. It is considered a sect in France and has faced prosecution and difficulties in registering its activities in many countries.

Defense lawyer Patrick Maisonneuve said during the trial that neither the Church of Scientology nor the six leaders on trial had gained financially from the group's practices.

The original complaint in the case dates back more than a decade, when a young woman said she took out loans and spent the equivalent of euro21,000 on books, courses and "purification packages" after being recruited in 1998. When she sought reimbursement and to leave the group, its leadership refused. She was among three eventual plaintiffs.

Olivier Morice, lawyer for civil parties in the case, said the verdict was "historic" because it was the first time in France that the Church of Scientology has been convicted of organized fraud.

Investigating Judge Jean-Christophe Hullin spent years examining the group's activities, and in his indictment criticized what he called the Scientologists' "obsession" with financial gain and practices he said were aimed at plunging members into a "state of subjection."

The Church of Scientology teaches that technology can expand the mind and help solve problems. It claims 10 million members around the world, including celebrity devotees Tom Cruise and John Travolta.

Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the U.S. State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations.

___

Associated Press writer Elaine Ganley contributed to this report.

[Animavore]

Yay. Now we just have to start hitting all the other religions.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yay. Now we just have to start hitting all the other religions.

"Our country is based on Christian values and the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion."

AND

"The government should stay out of religion 100%."

The god squad plays it both ways here. Hypocrisy doesn't seem to be an issue with them.

[meex]

I'm kind of conflicted on how I feel about something like this. Basically, someone saying they didn't achieve their religious/spiritual goal and asking for their money back once leaving the church. What happens if someone is a member of another church (Methodist, Catholic, etc.) and decides to leave the congregation and wants all of their donations back?

Granted, I understand the idea of the case was more than getting a refund, and that it addressed the "bigger" issue of "Churches" taking advantage of people, but where is the line drawn? Should somebody that belongs to any other church, organization, or community, even one like this forum, be entitled to compensation for either money or time spent once they decide to change their mind, leaving the place they left to be labeled as a fraudulent entity?

[Feck]

I'm kind of conflicted on how I feel about something like this. Basically, someone saying they didn't achieve their religious/spiritual goal and asking for their money back once leaving the church. What happens if someone is a member of another church (Methodist, Catholic, etc.) and decides to leave the congregation and wants all of their donations back?

Granted, I understand the idea of the case was more than getting a refund, and that it addressed the "bigger" issue of "Churches" taking advantage of people, but where is the line drawn? Should somebody that belongs to any other church, organization, or community, even one like this forum, be entitled to compensation for either money or time spent once they decide to change their mind, leaving the place they left to be labeled as a fraudulent entity?

Like a divorce settlement then ? And The scientologists do not just ask for donations they Charge for Treatments etc as I understand it .
It would have been better if more cases were brought against them for abuse .

[meex]

I'm kind of conflicted on how I feel about something like this. Basically, someone saying they didn't achieve their religious/spiritual goal and asking for their money back once leaving the church. What happens if someone is a member of another church (Methodist, Catholic, etc.) and decides to leave the congregation and wants all of their donations back?

Granted, I understand the idea of the case was more than getting a refund, and that it addressed the "bigger" issue of "Churches" taking advantage of people, but where is the line drawn? Should somebody that belongs to any other church, organization, or community, even one like this forum, be entitled to compensation for either money or time spent once they decide to change their mind, leaving the place they left to be labeled as a fraudulent entity?

Like a divorce settlement then ? And The scientologists do not just ask for donations they Charge for Treatments etc as I understand it .
It would have been better if more cases were brought against them for abuse .

Well, a divorce settlement is a bit different in some aspects. At the same time, I don't necessarily agree with the way all divorces have been handled and/or ruled upon.

As far as charging for treatments, I don't see it as any different than a medical practice, which too isn't an exact science. If I go to the doctor and am not "cured" or relieved of my symptoms, I have no recourse against the doctor I visited to claim fraud or get my money back. They administered a treatment they believed to be the best fit for my ailment. These individuals are well aware of what they are paying for, and not only do it once, but participate numerous times with a substantial amount of money. That doesn't indicate a lack of commitment or unwillingness.

The reason I am conflicted is because it does pain me to see individuals taken advantage of. I don't know if they were duped over and over again, or if they honestly believed they could find their solution with the methods the church was offering. Either way, it is a shame when folks lose their hard earned time and money and are left unhappy.

Thank you for your thoughts, my friend.

[maiforpeace]

Xenu n'existe pas.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Surely, using an ordinary galvanometer on someone and claiming it is actually a device for measuring alien lifeforces constitutes fraud?

[meex]

Surely, using an ordinary galvanometer on someone and claiming it is actually a device for measuring alien lifeforces constitutes fraud?

To you and I, yes. That is the whole issue, where is the line drawn? Surely, one could say that a claim of personal benefits by believing in God, attending church, doing this or doing that, would constitute fraud. At the same time, there are millions of willing participants that do that every day, and taking those establishments to court once someone changes their mind, seems to be an issue. They know what they are doing, they have studied their texts, they participate in their communities, and do numerous other things that show a willingness to involve themselves time and time again. Why shouldn't they be held responsible for their own actions?

I agree that being mislead and being taken for thousands of dollars is a terrible thing, and I would be quite angry if that were to happen to me or a loved one. I simply don't know that taking a religious institute to court for claiming/hypothesizing things that can't necessarily be proven, is the right answer. That leaves almost every single religious and/or scientific entity up for criminal or civil prosecution.

Thank you again, my friends.

[Feck]

Surely, using an ordinary galvanometer on someone and claiming it is actually a device for measuring alien lifeforces constitutes fraud?

Using one as a primitive lie detector linked with sleep deprivation counts as abuse !

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Personally, I am of the opinion that most fraudsters (and by that, I mean confidence tricksters - credit card fraud is another matter - that is just theft) provide a useful service in removing money from the stupid and greedy (most victims of fraud are both and almost all are one or the other.)

[Feck]

Personally, I am of the opinion that most fraudsters (and by that, I mean confidence tricksters - credit card fraud is another matter - that is just theft) provide a useful service in removing money from the stupid and greedy (most victims of fraud are both and almost all are one or the other.)

It is a lot harder to defraud a totally honest person ,but some cons rely on the basic niceness of the victim .

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm kind of conflicted on how I feel about something like this. Basically, someone saying they didn't achieve their religious/spiritual goal and asking for their money back once leaving the church. What happens if someone is a member of another church (Methodist, Catholic, etc.) and decides to leave the congregation and wants all of their donations back?

Granted, I understand the idea of the case was more than getting a refund, and that it addressed the "bigger" issue of "Churches" taking advantage of people, but where is the line drawn? Should somebody that belongs to any other church, organization, or community, even one like this forum, be entitled to compensation for either money or time spent once they decide to change their mind, leaving the place they left to be labeled as a fraudulent entity?

They promised a service they didn't perform. It's a bait-and-switch operation from square one. That's actionable in the US.

[meex]

I'm kind of conflicted on how I feel about something like this. Basically, someone saying they didn't achieve their religious/spiritual goal and asking for their money back once leaving the church. What happens if someone is a member of another church (Methodist, Catholic, etc.) and decides to leave the congregation and wants all of their donations back?

Granted, I understand the idea of the case was more than getting a refund, and that it addressed the "bigger" issue of "Churches" taking advantage of people, but where is the line drawn? Should somebody that belongs to any other church, organization, or community, even one like this forum, be entitled to compensation for either money or time spent once they decide to change their mind, leaving the place they left to be labeled as a fraudulent entity?

They promised a service they didn't perform. It's a bait-and-switch operation from square one. That's actionable in the US.

Yes, in specific situations where the results, expectations, and terms are clear cut. Results and treatments of a religious/spiritual nature are not even close to clearly defined. Again, religious groups promise forgiveness, a better life, and numerous other things in return for faith, service, sometimes even money (in the form of giving or contributions to said establishment) every single day all over the world, and people comply over and over again. Those very groups face no repercussions because it is understood that those things can't be governed or guaranteed the same way something like monetary transactions and commercial processes are.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm kind of conflicted on how I feel about something like this. Basically, someone saying they didn't achieve their religious/spiritual goal and asking for their money back once leaving the church. What happens if someone is a member of another church (Methodist, Catholic, etc.) and decides to leave the congregation and wants all of their donations back?

Granted, I understand the idea of the case was more than getting a refund, and that it addressed the "bigger" issue of "Churches" taking advantage of people, but where is the line drawn? Should somebody that belongs to any other church, organization, or community, even one like this forum, be entitled to compensation for either money or time spent once they decide to change their mind, leaving the place they left to be labeled as a fraudulent entity?

They promised a service they didn't perform. It's a bait-and-switch operation from square one. That's actionable in the US.

Yes, in specific terms where the results, expectations, and terms are clear cut. Results and treatments of a religious/spiritual nature are not even close to clearly defined. Again, religious groups promise forgiveness, a better life, and numerous other things in return for faith, service, sometimes even money (in the form of giving or contributions to said establishment) every single day all over the world, and people comply over and over again. Those very groups face no repercussions because it is understood that those things can't be governed or guaranteed the same way something like monetary transactions and commercial processes are.

The CoS tells you exactly what will happen if you buy their books and follow their training. No hedging there. It's bait-and-switch.