Should we be more radically opposed to Islam?

[Rum]

Geert Wilders, the Dutch politician very opposed to Isam has arrived in the UK today. Here's the story:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8311059.stm

He thinks Islam is a heavy duty threat to the rest of us. I waver and I feel uncertain about how to react, though of course in terms of religion (which is only part of this story) I dismiss Islam as nonsense.

What do you think?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Anything that is intolerant of EVERYTHING else is a issue for us all. The Muslims used to be tolerant of the "people of the book", but that seems to have changed. National Socialism had the same issues, "you're one of us or you're nothing."

[Pappa]

I find myself alternating between a woolly liberal "accept everyone's views" and a raving "Islam's fucking dangerous lets kill it".

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I find myself alternating between a woolly liberal "accept everyone's views" and a raving "Islam's fucking dangerous lets kill it".

That's because most Moslems aren't a problem. They're just people. But the warts stick out very far.

[Pappa]

I find myself alternating between a woolly liberal "accept everyone's views" and a raving "Islam's fucking dangerous lets kill it".

That's because most Moslems aren't a problem. They're just people. But the warts stick out very far.

I've met two types of Muslims (or two times that I've got to know well enough to get an idea of what they're like as people). The middle-class Pakistani Muslims are obviously devout in the sense that Islam is a central part of their lives, they go to the mosque every Friday, etc., but they're primarily interested in making money to be comfortable and happy in life. They're what we tend to call 'moderates'. Then there's the Somali Muslims.... Jesus Christ.... they are radicalized. They argue amongst themselves vociferously on aspects of Islamic morality and interpretations of the Quran (two of the guy's in work would do this all the time, even in the corridors and reception). The obey everything their Sheikh has to say without question, etc., etc.. Two of these guys I saw every day and got on well with, I liked them. But I also knew they perceived me as essentially immoral and spiritually inferior to them.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I find myself alternating between a woolly liberal "accept everyone's views" and a raving "Islam's fucking dangerous lets kill it".

That's because most Moslems aren't a problem. They're just people. But the warts stick out very far.

I've met two types of Muslims (or two times that I've got to know well enough to get an idea of what they're like as people). The middle-class Pakistani Muslims are obviously devout in the sense that Islam is a central part of their lives, they go to the mosque every Friday, etc., but they're primarily interested in making money to be comfortable and happy in life. They're what we tend to call 'moderates'. Then there's the Somali Muslims.... Jesus Christ.... they are radicalized. They argue amongst themselves vociferously on aspects of Islamic morality and interpretations of the Quran (two of the guy's in work would do this all the time, even in the corridors and reception). The obey everything their Sheikh has to say without question, etc., etc.. Two of these guys I saw every day and got on well with, I liked them. But I also knew they perceived me as essentially immoral and spiritually inferior to them.

The radicals I met were truly crazy. The first time I ran into them was in ------- and they were willing to do anything, to anybody, in order to further their cause. God-powered crazy is bad stuff.

[AshtonBlack]

One of the weapons the hierarchy uses to prevent the evolution of Islam is the "law" that states that the head Imam of a mosque cannot be born in the country, if that country is not an Islamic one. Therefore, Imams from other countries get a free pass to the UK. (Special religious status). This "keeps down" cultural influences from the host nation.

Basically, until we drop the "special status" from ALL religions, Islam is not going to "grow up".

[Gawdzilla Sama]

One of the weapons the hierarchy uses to prevent the evolution of Islam is the "law" that states that the head Imam of a mosque cannot be born in the country, if that country is not an Islamic one. Therefore, Imams from other countries get a free pass to the UK. (Special religious status). This "keeps down" cultural influences from the host nation.

Basically, until we drop the "special status" from ALL religions, Islam is not going to "grow up".

Islam has been like Japan was during WWII, but for centuries.

[Bella Fortuna]

I find myself alternating between a woolly liberal "accept everyone's views" and a raving "Islam's fucking dangerous lets kill it".

I find myself in this predicament too - the former because that's how I was raised, mainly, and the latter the result of seeing too much crazy shit having gone on in the world fueled by that volatile fire.

[Pappa]

I find myself alternating between a woolly liberal "accept everyone's views" and a raving "Islam's fucking dangerous lets kill it".

I find myself in this predicament too - the former because that's how I was raised, mainly, and the latter the result of seeing too much crazy shit having gone on in the world fueled by that volatile fire.

I'd hardly describe myself as "accepting everyone's views" any more. I refuse to accept religious views that accept or disrupt the wellbeing of others, but I still have this accepting way with other people's beliefs, partly because I feel people have a right to whatever view they like, but also because religious views aren't exactly chosen, they're foisted on the person at an impressionable age usually (or they're foisted on a very impressionable and fragile adult in the case of most born agains or muslim converts).

I agree completely with Ashton on the point of removing religion's 'special status'. It should never, ever be a trump card.

[charlou]

When personal beliefs become political then it's everyone's business. Islam is an all encompassing world view which seeks to convert (or kill) and that makes it a political concern, which in turn makes it everyone's concern.

Behaviours are what should be the focus of attention, and no-one immigrant to a western/european culture should be exempt from the law regarding their behaviour, not for any reason, religious belief or otherwise.

[Sisifo]

I have lived or visited almost every Islamic country you can name. And yes, I believe it is a threat because in Islam there is no separation of social lives, State and beliefs.

Even countries who have a tight control of their fundies, like turkey or the pre-war (1st) Iraq, or Malaysia, can't avoid passing the rituals and traditions into the society and every day life. Non Muslims are accepted, sure, as long as they behave like Muslims. That is: women wearing the veil, eating hidden in Ramadan, separating men and women in public spaces, and of course, the loss of rights of minorities like gays or freethinkers.

Recently I realized that nuts like Glenn Beck, creationism in the schools, banana man and other popular targets for Atheists, are not my problem. They are an American problem. Outrageous, but anecdotal if you are not American or live in America.

The real threat for the goals of atheists, which are -at least mine-: To promote reasoning in all levels of society, eradicate the virus of religion from the Powers and Institutions of the State, and work for a sustainable future by the means of science, education, and democratic respect and responsibility towards others, regardless their age, gender, ethnicity and sexual preferences. The real threat in Europe, is Islam.

Those goals are enemies of the Islamic beliefs! And it doesn't need to be fundies. They are the Core of Islam. Education is limited in the poorest levels to Q'ram. There is no equality of rights, and with one or two very arguable exceptions, there is no such thing as a democratic Islamic country!!

So, the threat of reason in America are probably evangelists, mormons, second borns and such. Creationists, in general. In Europe, we have another and very pungent threat: Islam

[charlou]

It's probably important (and interesting) to ask ... what would each of us consider "radical opposition" and what do we consider acceptable opposition?


My view is strong enforcement of the law, including laws that protect human rights, and setting up/maintaining a system that is geared toward integrating immigrants into western/european society and law.

I'm still considering our practical responsibilities wrt to human rights of people still living in other countries ... that is I believe we have a responsibility to work to uphold and protect the human rights of all people, but how we go about effecting change for them is something I'm still pondering ...

[Sisifo]

It's probably important (and interesting) to ask ... what would each of us consider "radical opposition" and what do we consider acceptable opposition?


My view is strong enforcement of the law, including laws that protect human rights, and setting up/maintaining a system that is geared toward integrating immigrants into western/european society and law.

I'm still considering our practical responsibilities wrt to human rights of people living in other countries ... that is I believe we have a responsibility to work to uphold and protect the human rights of all people, but how we go about effecting change for them is something I'm still pondering ...

One of the problems of opposing Islam in Europe is that the policies can take the form or be interpreted as xenophobia or racism. Catholics have an expression: Hate the sin, not the sinner. In this case: Fight the belief, not the believer. France has many right policies: Ban the exhibition of religious symbols in public places. Create special groups to supervise human rights in Muslim quarters, at the same time as designing policies to increase the opportunities and integration of immigrant minorities. Avoid creating ghettos and neuter socially religious gurus in those ghettos. I know of many Muslim immigrants who became more fundamentalists as a result of feeling rejected in their adoptive country.

[Trolldor]

You can not seperate the believer from the belief. It's an absurd fallacy which fails to grasp the way religion operates.
It's simply a matter of how - tax religion and don't censor free speech. Any concerted or controlled effort is self-defeating. If you want to defeat Islam, then you have to accept the only way is to not succumb to the same puritanical views. You have to allow the hate speech both to and from, along with the sincere attempts to outreach. You have to confront them and you will insult them no matter how polite you are if you're really challenging their beliefs.