Feet of Clay

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L'Emmerdeur
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Re: Feet of Clay

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:41 am

Hermit wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:16 am
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:36 pm
Is that the British 'quite' as in somewhat, or the American 'quite' as in definitely? I enquired which of these is common in Australia, and the reply was ambiguous. ;)
Let me assure you that 'quite' is indeed used to denote 'somewhat' as well as 'definitely' down here, but since I quite like ambiguity sometimes, let's leave it at that, shall we? :mrgreen:
Interesting. I suppose that in verbal communication tone will indicate which connotation is intended, but in text a person would be required to examine context, which may fail to provide clarity. I'm cool with ambiguity though.

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Re: Feet of Clay

Post by Hermit » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:02 am

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:41 am
Hermit wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:16 am
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:36 pm
Is that the British 'quite' as in somewhat, or the American 'quite' as in definitely? I enquired which of these is common in Australia, and the reply was ambiguous. ;)
Let me assure you that 'quite' is indeed used to denote 'somewhat' as well as 'definitely' down here, but since I quite like ambiguity sometimes, let's leave it at that, shall we? :mrgreen:
Interesting. I suppose that in verbal communication tone will indicate which connotation is intended, but in text a person would be required to examine context, which may fail to provide clarity. I'm cool with ambiguity though.
Yes, quite. :tup:
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Re: Feet of Clay

Post by JimC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:47 am

Hermit wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:39 am
JimC wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:41 pm
Hermit wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:09 pm
It is nothing more a lack of belief in the existence of a supernatural being that created everything. Nothing at all.
I think atheism is something more than that, at least in terms of the process people go through to become atheists. Simply not believing in the existence of a pink elephant the size of a mountain permanently buried within the gas clouds of Jupiter is rather easy to do. For people immersed in a culture where religion is a real if fading influence, and particularly if you were brought up to believe, is considerably more difficult. Commonly, it involves the exercise of logic, and a willingness to do away with the comfort religion provides, particularly when confronted by your own death, or the death of loved ones. It often involves an exploration of the ways of viewing the universe provided by science, which again requires at least some intellectual effort.

So, in a purely logical sense, atheism is only a lack of belief in a supernatural being, but its ramifications for the cognitive process of anyone who comes to share that lack of belief are important. One thing is clear, though - it lends no particular moral or ethical cachet, and atheists in general are just as liable to personality faults all humans are heirs to...
Maybe I should have expressed myself more pedantically, but in the context of the Salon article as well as my reaction to it I didn't think there was a need for it. What I thought was understood when I wrote the bit I now coloured blue was what you wrote I now coloured red. Additionally, atheism does not preclude someone being a libertarian, fascist, socialist, communist or a person subscribing to any other political or social view. The only thing an atheist is precluded from being is...
Sure, we agree on that (the bit of my post you coloured red), and many of the directions espoused by the "new atheists" , particularly the political elements, had major faults. No problem. But, I still stand by my view that developing an atheist stance has more complexities than saying that "atheism is the absence of belief, end of story"
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Re: Feet of Clay

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:24 am

Yeah. I guess we're talking about the difference between what atheism is and what it means to be an atheist.
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Re: Feet of Clay

Post by JimC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:42 am

Yeah, that is close to what I was getting at...
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Re: Feet of Clay

Post by Hermit » Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:55 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:24 am
Yeah. I guess we're talking about the difference between what atheism is and what it means to be an atheist.
Or what it entails to become an atheist. For many of us developing an atheist stance involves an intellectual struggle. We become skilled at reasoning things out in a logical way and our knowledge and appreciation of things scientific grows more than in those who vegetate contentedly within their theistic mindset and environment. We become "The Brights". :tut:
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Feet of Clay

Post by JimC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:04 pm

Hermit wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:55 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:24 am
Yeah. I guess we're talking about the difference between what atheism is and what it means to be an atheist.
Or what it entails to become an atheist. For many of us developing an atheist stance involves an intellectual struggle. We become skilled at reasoning things out in a logical way and our knowledge and appreciation of things scientific grows more than in those who vegetate contentedly within their theistic mindset and environment. We become "The Brights". :tut:
:nono:

The sarcasm at the end is not warranted. Yes, I think that becoming an atheist does require some intellectual effort, and for people within deeply religious communities and families, a good deal of courage. But this does not automatically have to result in the sort of egotistical arrogance shown by some "new atheists", with the cringe-worthy self-bestowed label "the brights". I give you Carl Sagan as an example...
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Re: Feet of Clay

Post by Tero » Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:14 pm

The religious people are kind of confused about us. We don't think we are biological robots (well, nice ones if we are) but they treat us as if we deny a rich emotional life by saying there is no god. We must be poor, miserable and depressed because "nothing means anything anymore."
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http://esabirdsne.blogspot.com/
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Re: Feet of Clay

Post by Svartalf » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:19 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:12 pm
You will justify yourself or face a wall of angry words sir. --hhmppff!
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