'Spiritual' and religious values which might still apply..

[Rum]

I think most of us here would probably subscribe to the view that morality and acceptable social behaviour grew out of our ape ancestry and need to get along. We don't need religion to explain why we think in terms of 'good' and 'bad' behaviour for sure.

However there are some perhaps slightly more philosophical or esoteric values and virtues which we tend to think of as religious in origin. Many atheists might dismiss these as of no consequence.

Examples include the view that all personal ambition is ultimately about vanity and brings no happiness. That material wealth is empty and of no real intrinsic value. That modesty, quietness and internal peace are to be admired and aspired to.

And others of a similar type, which seem mostly to be around the notion that focusing on the personal ego does not ultimately bring happiness or contentment.

I wonder how these ideas fit with you as an atheist - or near atheist.

[klr]

I've found that whatever the "good" religious values might be, they still tend to come bundled with not-so-good values, and other extras that I'd rather do without. Like preachiness, or (much worse) negative values and concepts.

I think most of us here would probably subscribe to the view that morality and acceptable social behaviour grew out of our ape ancestry and need to get along. We don't need religion to explain why we think in terms of 'good' and 'bad' behaviour for sure.

However there are some perhaps slightly more philosophical or esoteric values and virtues which we tend to think of as religious in origin. Many atheists might dismiss these as of no consequence.

Examples include the view that all personal ambition is ultimately about vanity and brings no happiness. That material wealth is empty and of no real intrinsic value. That modesty, quietness and internal peace are to be admired and aspired to.

And others of a similar type, which seem mostly to be around the notion that focusing on the personal ego does not ultimately bring happiness or contentment.

I wonder how these ideas fit with you as an atheist - or near atheist.

I certainly wouldn't dismiss certain values, but I would probably object to the proposition that they were religious in origin. Even where something is first recorded in a religious text, there's no guarantee that had truly religious origins. It might just be that the text was the first place it was written down.

[kiki5711]

try telling that to the 1%.

I think once you have acquired taste for money and power, it's very hard to think along those humble words.

[klr]

try telling that to the 1%.

I think once you have acquired taste for money and power, it's very hard to think along those humble words.

There are even Christian movements which argue that (ala Gordon Gecko) "greed is God good):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith

... which just goes to show that you can argue just about anything from a religious standpoint.

[PsychoSerenity]

Mostly I still consider them to be matters of fact (be they true or false) - though rather difficult to be certain of, and dependent on the specific situation and specific consequences. As Klr says, though they may have first been described in religious texts, that doesn't negate what we still might learn from psycho-social studies. There are some quite unintuitive things that have been shown about what really makes people happy etc.

[Robert_S]

I think most of us here would probably subscribe to the view that morality and acceptable social behaviour grew out of our ape ancestry and need to get along. We don't need religion to explain why we think in terms of 'good' and 'bad' behaviour for sure.

However there are some perhaps slightly more philosophical or esoteric values and virtues which we tend to think of as religious in origin. Many atheists might dismiss these as of no consequence.

Examples include the view that all personal ambition is ultimately about vanity and brings no happiness. That material wealth is empty and of no real intrinsic value. That modesty, quietness and internal peace are to be admired and aspired to.

And others of a similar type, which seem mostly to be around the notion that focusing on the personal ego does not ultimately bring happiness or contentment.

I wonder how these ideas fit with you as an atheist - or near atheist.

These truths are like whales, but they can't really get around like they used to because the barnacles of superstition have gotten out of hand and their collective mass outweighs the poor creatures.

[Rum]

I tend to agree with Psycho. It is simply an observable fact that money does not bring happiness and success doesn't bring satisfaction (for example) in all cases, perhaps in the majority. We are all still faced with the human condition - that mortality is our fate and ambition of any kind in the face of that fact is futile. In which case, without the asceticism of religion, the goals offered by self sacrifice and mortification, we are fucked.

That's OK though, whoever said we were meant NOT to be fucked - its still an amazing ride!

[cowiz]

Sounds a bit Buddhist

[Drewish]

Examples include the view that all personal ambition is ultimately about vanity and brings no happiness. That material wealth is empty and of no real intrinsic value. That modesty, quietness and internal peace are to be admired and aspired to.

I agree with none of those

[amused]

I think we are on a trajectory toward direct control of our own evolution and will eventually craft ourselves into something really wonderful. When that happens, there won't be any disparities in ability, and hence no justifiable reason for disparities in opportunity.

The people of the Forbes top 100-500-xxxx should be deeply ashamed at the disparity that exists between them and the child that just died of starvation.

5 seconds - and another child just died

5 seconds - and another child just died

5 seconds - and another child just died

5 seconds - and another child just died

repeat ad nauseum

[Svartalf]

try telling that to the 1%.

I think once you have acquired taste for money and power, it's very hard to think along those humble words.

There are even Christian movements which argue that (ala Gordon Gecko) "greed is God good):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith

... which just goes to show that you can argue just about anything from a religious standpoint.

Meaning you can bend the greatest teachings in the world to reflect your own twisted fews once the founder is no longer there to kick your butt...
Not the chretinity was that great to begin with anyway.

[amused]

make it blue

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Money cannot buy happiness, they say.

BULLSHIT!

However, it is true that, beyond a certain point - ie. once all basic desires and needs are met - further money cannot buy further happiness. Sadly, very few of us will ever live to reach that lofty peak for more than a few, brief moments in our lives, if at all!

[FBM]

Sounds a bit Buddhist

Very much so. And Taoist.

In Calvinism, wealth is a sure sign of God's blessing.


As for humility, modesty, etc, I don't know about anyone else, but I have a viseral negative reaction to show-offs, arrogant people, narcissistic people in general. It's not rational, though I could probably rationalize something ad hoc to 'explain' it (read: pull something out of my ass that sounds good).

[cowiz]

Sounds a bit Buddhist

Very much so. And Taoist.

In Calvinism, wealth is a sure sign of God's blessing.


As for humility, modesty, etc, I don't know about anyone else, but I have a viseral negative reaction to show-offs, arrogant people, narcissistic people in general. It's not rational, though I could probably rationalize something ad hoc to 'explain' it (read: pull something out of my ass that sounds good).

Show off intermellectual