Boo hoo - the Irish Church is broke (my arse it is!)

[Cormac]

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-catholi ... 2-Aug2011/

"Leaked" papers suggest that the Church in Dublin is considering a levy on believers as it faces "financial collapse".

This shortly after some orders have stated that they are not legally obliged to pay over their financial contribution as agreed when the Irish government agreed to fund compensation for victims of sexual abuse. The agreement was that the church would have to pay over a set amount, and the government would have to pay any excess - as this excess was expected to be substantially bigger than the church contribution, this amounts to nothing more than an unconstitutional support of the church. But the church has failed to make its contribution, and is now trying to renege on it.

It is very suspicious that having offloaded substantial and very valuable properties during the boom, that the church now finds itself without funds. Especially when they're not obliged to submit proper accounts to the state.

I smell a (decomposing) rat.

[Pappa]

Why would the government agree to pay the excess in the first place? That's nuts.

[Cormac]

Why would the government agree to pay the excess in the first place? That's nuts.

The twitchings of the church-state corpse.

[Feck]

Time to seize their assets, if every country with a catholic abuse scandal did that then they might stop blaming atheists ,secularists and sexy children for their abuse and start to even consider that they have been wrong .I don't think that ,even now, they want to admit that they are not above the law .They have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that , as an organisation, they should be destroyed.

[Cormac]

Time to seize their assets, if every country with a catholic abuse scandal did that then they might stop blaming atheists ,secularists and sexy children for their abuse and start to even consider that they have been wrong .I don't think that ,even now, they want to admit that they are not above the law .They have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that , as an organisation, they should be destroyed.

They absolutely "know"* that they are above the law. (Opus Dei specifically allows their priests and lay people to break the law in furtherance of the extension of that organisation).









* This is for the same reason that they can doublethink their way into defending their practice of "Mental Reservation", which is known to everyone else as "Lying" - either overtly or by omission.

[Callan]

"Mental reservation"?
Can I try that one on the Inland Revenue?

[Cormac]

"Mental reservation"?
Can I try that one on the Inland Revenue?

You'd be most welcome to try.

Of course, the church doesn't have much involvement with Revenue, being for the most part, not subject to taxation.

[JimC]

"Mental reservation"?
Can I try that one on the Inland Revenue?

You'd be most welcome to try.

Of course, the church doesn't have much involvement with Revenue, being for the most part, not subject to taxation.

If governments around the world get pissed off enough with them, that could change...

[Seth]

Time to seize their assets, if every country with a catholic abuse scandal did that then they might stop blaming atheists ,secularists and sexy children for their abuse and start to even consider that they have been wrong .I don't think that ,even now, they want to admit that they are not above the law .They have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that , as an organisation, they should be destroyed.

Whose assets, exactly? What organization, precisely? You grossly misunderstand the structure of the Catholic church. It's not like Microsoft or Exxon, it's not owned by the Pope or the Vatican. It's not even an organization like the Boy Scouts.

It's a religion, and most "church assets" are owned by individual parishes or local dioceses, which are economically and legally independent of one another. The Archdiocese of Boston, which went into bankruptcy to pay something like 700 million in settlements, is financially and legally distinct from the Archdiocese of Denver, and what the Bishops in Boston did cannot be used against the property of the Denver Archdiocese, just as anything some priest in the Denver Archdiocese cannot be used against a parish church in Boulder that isn't actually owned by the Archdiocese but is owned by the members of that particular parish.

The Papal control structure that you mistake for ownership is SPIRITUAL leadership, not economic or financial ownership or control. The Vatican does not own much of anything belonging to American Catholics, nor is the Vatican legally responsible for the economic or financial problems the Boston Archdiocese might face.

It's a large group of people, more than a billion of them, who are united to by spiritual faith and very little else. Their obedience to the Pope is entirely voluntary, and no Catholic church or priest can be forced to do anything by the Pope, nor surrender local parish assets to the Vatican on demand.

All the Pope can do with a recalcitrant parish priest ultimately, if the priest refuses to cooperate, is defrock them and prohibit them from calling themselves "Catholic" priests...but only because the Vatican holds the trademark on "Catholic church."

So, not only is it legally and physically impossible to "destroy" the Catholic church as an "organization," its legally and physically impossible, not to mention ethically and morally corrupt to try to hold all Catholics responsible for the crimes of a very, very few corrupt priests and bishops.

Certainly those who committed crimes should be prosecuted if it's within the statute of limitations, but Catholicism is not an "organization" it's a religious faith with a billion adherents who will not allow it to be "destroyed." People have been trying to do so for 2011 years, and have been unsuccessful so far.

So, good luck with your attempt.

[charlou]

They absolutely "know"* that they are above the law. (Opus Dei specifically allows their priests and lay people to break the law in furtherance of the extension of that organisation).

Like they "know" the bible is the word of god, because they say so.

The law trumps Opus Dei ... and the government, as representative of the people, should be supporting the law, not the lawbreakers.

Why would the government agree to pay the excess in the first place? That's nuts.

The twitchings of the church-state corpse.

Finish it off

[Robert_S]

Does Ireland have an equivalent to the RICO laws in the US?

[mistermack]

The Vatican does not own much of anything belonging to American Catholics, nor is the Vatican legally responsible for the economic or financial problems the Boston Archdiocese might face.

You've got the same situation with the Mafia, haven't you?
Italian gangsters getting incredibly wealthy, even though they don't own anything.
It sounds just like the pope to me.
Use the same racketeering laws, and take away the charitable tax status for ALL religions.
Charity my arse.

[Ronja]

Use the same racketeering laws, and take away the charitable tax status for ALL religions.
Charity my arse.

[JimC]

The Vatican does not own much of anything belonging to American Catholics, nor is the Vatican legally responsible for the economic or financial problems the Boston Archdiocese might face.

You've got the same situation with the Mafia, haven't you?
Italian gangsters getting incredibly wealthy, even though they don't own anything.
It sounds just like the pope to me.
Use the same racketeering laws, and take away the charitable tax status for ALL religions.
Charity my arse.

And with the charity thing, any moneys that a church actually spends on charity (properly documented) would become a tax deduction, same as it is for everybody...

They don't deserve to have all their activities non-taxable...

[klr]

"You can't run the Church on Hail Marys" - (Archbishop) Paul Marcinkus