Fuck! Indoctrinating my child! Fucking bollocks!

[Millefleur]

Was loading the dishwasher this morning while the girls played in the living room before school and heard the 5 yr old shout something about 'the hand of God'!






Walked in the livingroom and she's stood on the arm of the sofa dangling a soft toy snake with a glove on the end.

'What did you just say?'

'It's the hand of God!'

'Wut?'

'The hand of God?'

'Where did you hear about 'the hand of God'?'

(sheepish) 'It's a game I made up..'

'I don't believe that. Who told you about this?'

'She.. I made it up.'

Realise I sound angry and I'm probably not handling this very well.

'Did you learn about this at school?'

'Ben read us a story from the true story section about God and Jesus, he's the son of God.'

'Well it's not a true story. It's all bollocks.' Definitely not handling this too well.

'BEN DOESN'T LIE!'

Fuck. She loves Ben, her teacher.

'It's a fairy tale, it's not true.'

'Well Daddy said Jesus was a real man. Daddy doesn't lie'

'Daddy didn't mean.. fuck'

It went on.. I tried explaining Genesis and asked her if that sounded utterly ridiculous, she laughed at it and started talking about volcanoes etc, I said yes, the Big Bang, the scientific way of explaining the creation of the world as we know it, not some magical invisible being who clicked his fingers and went Ta-da! She asked if scientists made up Jesus i said something about some people believing God lived in 'Heaven' and she jumped in with God coming down to under the ground and fighting the devil I told her it was full of molten rock etc and the devil is bollocks too.

I seriously need to put some proper lesson plans together for afternoon homeschooling. Big Bang for a start. I was under the impression that's what she did at school this term, I wonder if they have a lesson plan or something I can check, see what they've actually said.

I need to speak to her teacher asap

[Feck]

Time to tell the child about stories like fairies and Santa and god? Or just go to school and punch Ben in the throat.

[Millefleur]

I think I need to see this book and get clarification on what part religion is playing in lessons - it's not supposed to be a religious school but her class is small and at least 4 classmates are religious that I know of so it's come up briefly before.. bollocks.

[Thinking Aloud]

That's the UK for you. Worship and religion are part and parcel of kids' education.

[Pappa]

That's the UK for you. Worship and religion are part and parcel of kids' education.

They are not supposed to present it as fact though.... unfortunately, even if they don't, young kids aren't able to differentiate when it comes from a trusted source. My path to RDF started when Felix came home one day saying "God made all the trees and butterflies". That was nipped in the bud very quickly and I spoke to the school about it too. They have visiting ministers come give assemblies to fulfill their legal quota of 50%+ a week. Fucking parasites.

[Rum]

That's the UK for you. Worship and religion are part and parcel of kids' education.

They are not supposed to present it as fact though.... unfortunately, even if they don't, young kids aren't able to differentiate when it comes from a trusted source. My path to RDF started when Felix came home one day saying "God made all the trees and butterflies". That was nipped in the bud very quickly and I spoke to the school about it too. They have visiting ministers come give assemblies to fulfill their legal quota of 50%+ a week. Fucking parasites.

Not quite true. Part of the National Curriculum is 'religion education', but it is supposed to be of a comparative nature, however 'maintained schools' (state schools that is) have a duty to provide 'collective worship' for all children on their books except those which have been specifically withdrawn by parents from doing so.

Oh, the regulations also state that the collective worship should be 'wholly or partly' Christian', however over the course of a year it is believe it or not acceptable to make it 51% Christian and 49% 'other'.

Twits.

Soon I will be able to forget all this crap.

[Millefleur]

What also concerns me is as it's a small class (maybe 10 kids and I know two sets of siblings are religious) if religion comes up it might seem to her like everyone thinks it's true, especially if the teachers are also religious When she said Ben read them a story from the 'true story section' it could simply be that there are several books about religion in there but because a decent number believe it maybe Christianity comes up regularly..
I know she first heard about God from a boy in her class who told her God created everything, we had a little discussion and she seemed satisfied that that's simply what some people believe but there are better explanations.
She also said this morning that when she says God isn't real her friends put their fingers in their ears and sing 'lalala', I told her it's better not to discuss religion with her friends as it'll only lead to arguments about who is right about what.

Rum, it's an independent school, we pay £1600 a term for part time schooling. Although it's not billed as a secular chool it's also not affiliated with any one religion and is meant to be inclusive.

[devogue]

Listen, this is really easy.

For three weeks take the kids swimming or playing every Sunday morning.

Then for three weeks take them to Mass.

On the seventh Sunday give them a choice - Jesus or Flumes.

Bye bye Jesus.

[HomerJay]

The scorched earth policy, if you speak to the teacher/school is that if they teach about god and jesus as a true story, and this conflicts with what the child hears at home, then this will undermine other areas where the (very young) child now has to differentiate between, when a teacher is telling them something, which bits are true and which ones aren't.

I say this is a scorched earth policy because the sub-text is that you are saying 'if you lie about one thing how can the children trust other things you say'.

It may be better to phrase yourself in softer terms as teachers don't react well to being told they shouldn't lie to children but it is a good argument to have in your back pocket if the teacher seems unresponsive to a softer approach.

[Millefleur]

Appointment tomorrow morning at 8.45

[Geoff]

Appointment tomorrow morning at 8.45

Take weapons.

I recommend this:



'zilla will probably recommend something even more effective, though less legal.

[Dries van Tonder]

Buy some kid's books about fossils, dinosaurs and the history of earth. And expose her to the music of Metalllica (when she gets interested in music). That's what I did. My kid went to a christian fundie school (primary school), and is currently in a school that "adheres to christian values". His point of view, when last checked: : "I'll remain christian, just in case (Of Hell actually existing)."

[M]

It was our 'meet the teachers' evening this week. The final conversation went something like this:

Teacher: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about?
Me: Yes. Pixie doesn't have any religion. She understands that this is a church of england school and that there will be references to one of the gods she doesn't believe in. Recently, though, she was asked to write a prayer and that made her uncomfortable. So I have told her that she can approach these issues by addressing the world instead. If, for instance, she has to write another 'prayer' she will start it 'dear world' and end it 'thank you world'. OK?
Teacher: Yes.

It was non confrontational and I knew a) what I wanted to say and b) what they were obliged to allow. It all went much easier than I had imagined. Mind you, it was probably helped by the fact that the teacher's opening statement when we sat down was "What can I say about Pixie? She's just amazing!" Yes, she is.

[Rum]

Lie many of my generation I was brought up taking religion sort of for granted in a Church of England kind of way. I was taught the Lords Prayer and said it every night for a few years but I didn't go to church, except occasionally for some event or other.

I was also brought up with liberal(ish), certainly open minded values and with a respect for reason and education.

With that sort of background it was easy to question religion, easy to explore it and the various alternatives and ultimately to give it up as a waste of time. Perhaps I spent rather too long hoping to find the 'right' one, but that is OK.

Kids, given the right framework end up with a decent, reasoned outlook. It may not be the one you would like it to be of course!

[JOZeldenrust]

Was loading the dishwasher this morning while the girls played in the living room before school and heard the 5 yr old shout something about 'the hand of God'!






Walked in the livingroom and she's stood on the arm of the sofa dangling a soft toy snake with a glove on the end.

'What did you just say?'

'It's the hand of God!'

'Wut?'

'The hand of God?'

'Where did you hear about 'the hand of God'?'

(sheepish) 'It's a game I made up..'

'I don't believe that. Who told you about this?'

'She.. I made it up.'

Realise I sound angry and I'm probably not handling this very well.

'Did you learn about this at school?'

'Ben read us a story from the true story section about God and Jesus, he's the son of God.'

'Well it's not a true story. It's all bollocks.' Definitely not handling this too well.

'BEN DOESN'T LIE!'

Fuck. She loves Ben, her teacher.

'It's a fairy tale, it's not true.'

'Well Daddy said Jesus was a real man. Daddy doesn't lie'

'Daddy didn't mean.. fuck'

It went on.. I tried explaining Genesis and asked her if that sounded utterly ridiculous, she laughed at it and started talking about volcanoes etc, I said yes, the Big Bang, the scientific way of explaining the creation of the world as we know it, not some magical invisible being who clicked his fingers and went Ta-da! She asked if scientists made up Jesus i said something about some people believing God lived in 'Heaven' and she jumped in with God coming down to under the ground and fighting the devil I told her it was full of molten rock etc and the devil is bollocks too.

I seriously need to put some proper lesson plans together for afternoon homeschooling. Big Bang for a start. I was under the impression that's what she did at school this term, I wonder if they have a lesson plan or something I can check, see what they've actually said.

I need to speak to her teacher asap

You're presenting the issue to your daughter as a dichotomy between a scientific world view and a religious world view, when in her experience there might not be a dichotomy at all. "Jesus" and "the hand of God" aren't about creation, or explaining the nature of the universe, and it doesn't sound like the teacher presented them as such.

I think instead of indoctrinating your child about evolution and emergent order in the universe - which to your daughter likely has nothing to do with Jesus or God and is way too abstract for her to get her head around anyway - you might try to explain that different people have different ways of looking at the world. Explain that Ben honestly believes something you don't, so Ben isn't lying, he's just wrong. If she wants to know why you think Ben's wrong, explain that what Ben believes about God and Jesus is based on the Bible, and the Bible might not be right about everything (I know that's putting it rahter mildly, but you'll be setting a good example if you restrict factual claims to what you actually know), in fact it isn't right about everything: the Bible claims to contain a history of creation up to the start of human history, but somehow it completely missed the dinosaurs (dinosaurs are good because even to a five year old, huge reptiles with big teeth and horns up the wazoo are clearly worth mentioning in an account of natural history). Still, quite a lot of people still believe the Bible is true, most likely because their parents told them it is.

Try to make your daughter understand what the difference is between your world view and a religious world view: that you look to the world to provide answers, whereas religion looks to authorities, and authorities can be wrong. Saying it's all bollocks and that the fossil record contradicts the Genesis account and the feeding of the masses violated the law of conservation of mass just seems unlikely to resonate with a five year old, and your daughter has no way of critically evaluate your claims. You'll be indoctrinating her relying solely on your position as an authority.