Sins and the flaw argument

[mightymouse]

I don't really know where to put this topic so, apologies in advance if it is in the wrong section. I am putting it in here because it starts off with religion.

The abrahamic religions teach a lot about sin and, to my mind, use sin as a useful tool in making people feel a great deal of unneccessary guilt. Christianity, where I grew up, teaches the idea of original sin and how Jesus can wash it all away blah blah blah...(how many psychologically damaged people are out there because of that drivel)

I must say I never got on with the idea of sin. A few of the more liberal Christians that I knew often equated sin with flaws of humanity and there may even be some agnostics and atheists that would agree that humanity does have flaws. Christian 'teaching' compares the average Joe with Jesus, where Joe is imperfect and Jesus, being God and all, is obviously perfection in sandals.

But does the word 'flaw' bring in false connotations that there is some sort of perfection that we fall short of? I mean, I know that there are many things that could be better for humanity as a society. Things such as bringing an end to hunger etc. But are we 'flawed' or is it just our nature to be the way we are?

Is the idea of 'perfection' something that is incorrectly applied to the human race? Does the religous appliction of 'perfection' promote responsibility or does it do more harm than good?

[PsychoSerenity]

True perfection has to be imperfect.

[hackenslash]

What is perfection? Frankly, I think that perfection is just like god. Ill-defined an unattainable.

[mightymouse]

I think it is more non-existent.

The problem as I see it, is that religion defines the language used with little or no explanation. Religion not only invents God, but also assigns the value of perfection to that God. It is easy from that position to claim the authority.

The whole concept of humans being flawed, to me, is incorrect.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Is the idea of 'perfection' something that is incorrectly applied to the human race? "

Ever seen a perfect human? Can you come close to describing one? Ever heard of one? Jesus was prone to anger and had moments of doubt, so he don't count? Buddha? If sitting under a tree for years is "perfect" I'll take the humans with the warts. Perfect non-humans, maybe, as models? Angels? One of them started the war in Heaven, some dude named Lucifer? God? Killed Lot's wife for sorrowing over her family and the only home she ever knew.

"Perfection" was the name of the hellhole town in the desert in the movie "Tremors". That's as close as we'll get.

Disclaimer: Uma Thurman not included in the above.

[charlou]

flaw/perfection ... good/evil ... sin/redemption ... notions of morality we got interested in during our evolution ...

[Trolldor]

"Is the idea of 'perfection' something that is incorrectly applied to the human race? "

Ever seen a perfect human? Can you come close to describing one? Ever heard of one? Jesus was prone to anger and had moments of doubt, so he don't count? Buddha? If sitting under a tree for years is "perfect" I'll take the humans with the warts. Perfect non-humans, maybe, as models? Angels? One of them started the war in Heaven, some dude named Lucifer? God? Killed Lot's wife for sorrowing over her family and the only home she ever knew.

"Perfection" was the name of the hellhole town in the desert in the movie "Tremors". That's as close as we'll get.

Disclaimer: Uma Thurman not included in the above.

Reminds me of a line from a show I can't remb--- Nevermind.

[mindyourmind]

But isn't that a part of the product?

You can never be perfect, like Jebus says you should be. You can try, in fact you can try by tithing, praying, confessing and tithing. While you feel less than a complete human you are more likely to take advice from old men in dresses that you would otherwise not even have asked for directions to a shop.

Keep the masses divided, guilt-ridden and obligated. Then give them the "solution", one which they can only collect on after death. And it costs the church absolutely fuck-all.

Nothing flawed with their marketing. Apart from the gross dishonesty.

[charlou]

But isn't that a part of the product?

You can never be perfect, like Jebus says you should be. You can try, in fact you can try by tithing, praying, confessing and tithing. While you feel less than a complete human you are more likely to take advice from old men in dresses that you would otherwise not even have asked for directions to a shop.

Keep the masses divided, guilt-ridden and obligated. Then give them the "solution", one which they can only collect on after death. And it costs the church absolutely fuck-all.

Nothing flawed with their marketing. Apart from the gross dishonesty.

In The Case Against God, George H. Smith said, "In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince men that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy man living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, man is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation."

[Animavore]

Isn't this the origin of heaven? People have an idea of their ideal world and when they look around and see this world they say to themselves "Well if I was god their wouldn't be any of this or that". The flaws are totally subjective.

I just think it's ironic that, for me, the ideal world would be devoid of religion.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Is the idea of 'perfection' something that is incorrectly applied to the human race? "

Ever seen a perfect human? Can you come close to describing one? Ever heard of one? Jesus was prone to anger and had moments of doubt, so he don't count? Buddha? If sitting under a tree for years is "perfect" I'll take the humans with the warts. Perfect non-humans, maybe, as models? Angels? One of them started the war in Heaven, some dude named Lucifer? God? Killed Lot's wife for sorrowing over her family and the only home she ever knew.

"Perfection" was the name of the hellhole town in the desert in the movie "Tremors". That's as close as we'll get.

Disclaimer: Uma Thurman not included in the above.

Reminds me of a line from a show I can't remb--- Nevermind.

Stole that from Jeremy What's-his-name. "It's like Uma Thurman, perfect, but you can't say exactly why."

[kiki5711]

Hey, very good topic.

Excerpts from a booklet the church I use to be a part of: This was long time ago that's why it's referring to year 2000. Now don't get on me about it, I'm just sharing what this particular religious sect is all about:

'We are entering a new century and a new millennium. Abundant speculation and anticipation exists with regard to what will happen when the year 2000 finally rolls in. Some believe we are nearing the end of time and that apocalyptic doom is awaiting. Others predict that we will witness the dawn of an age of peace and prosperity for all.

The question we have to ask ourselves is: have we as individuals, despite the technological progress and material abundance, become better and happier people? Have we become more loving,
caring and responsible? The answer unfortunately is no. Technology has enabled us to produce more and better goods, but it has not at all improved the well-being of our familieS and communities. Even though our knowledge of the physical world has increased tremendously, we remain ignorant of life's spiritual dimension. The hatred that separates people, nations and races is the same as it always has been.

As a result, the world is beset by problems that seem insoluble: war, famine, environmental pollution, drug abuse, AIDS, family breakdown, crime and suicide. Who has the solutions to these problems? Government institutions certainly do not have the answers, nor can we expect them to. Neither will the ultimate solution be found in a scientific research institute or laboratory. The established religious institutions, for all their vigor and long-standing dedication, have been unable to prevent this crisis from developing. Their moral authority has been severely questioned.
A New Expression of Truth is Needed.

A deeper analysis of the problems in our society reveals that they are not new. In fact, the failures of our modern civilization are the result of a deeper cause, which can be traced back to the beginnings of humankind. We observe that throughout history, people have striven for happiness and yet have indulged in attitudes and behaviors which lead to unhappiness and utter misery. Why is it that human beings have always longed for peace and brotherhood, and yet have caused so much conflict and suffering? Are love and hatred, good and evil destined to coexist, as some believe, so that lasting peace and harmony can never be achieved? If the world was created by a loving God, why is there so much suffering?

These and many other difficult questions touch upon the very essence of our being. What is the purpose of our life? What is our origin and destiny? Does God exist, and if so, how can we know God? Humankind has sought to answer these questions through religion, which is a spiritual, internal path, and through science, which deals with the external world. However, religion and science have interpreted reality in conflicting ways, leading to confusion and conflict. To move beyond the present impasse, religion and science must be brought into harmony by a higher understanding of truth, one which interprets the spiritual and material aspects of life within one consistent framework.

To have a real effect in the world, this higher understanding of truth should also solve the inconsistencies within and between religions, creating the basis for reconciliation among religions and cultures. The major religions, based upon teachings given in the far-distant past, do not compel the intellect of modern people. In particular, this new expression of truth must clarify the meaning of the Bible and all the world's scriptures, paving the way for the world's religions to resolve their internal struggles and become resources for building world peace.

Furthermore, the true nature of God must be revealed, enabling us to know God through both logic and heart, and thus leading all people through the power of their consciences to lives of goodness. The new truth should reveal the source of the contradiction within the human heart, and show us how we can resolve the conflict between the mind and body. If we find peace within ourselves as individuals, then peace within families, communities, nations and the world will become a real possibility."

It goes on to talk about original sin but,

you know what, after reading this small part, I started to get tired already. Flashbacks of my religious past.

[mightymouse]

Hey, very good topic.

Excerpts from a booklet the church I use to be a part of: This was long time ago that's why it's referring to year 2000. Now don't get on me about it, I'm just sharing what this particular religious sect is all about:

'We are entering a new century and a new millennium. Abundant speculation and anticipation exists with regard to what will happen when the year 2000 finally rolls in. Some believe we are nearing the end of time and that apocalyptic doom is awaiting. Others predict that we will witness the dawn of an age of peace and prosperity for all.

The question we have to ask ourselves is: have we as individuals, despite the technological progress and material abundance, become better and happier people? Have we become more loving,
caring and responsible? The answer unfortunately is no. Technology has enabled us to produce more and better goods, but it has not at all improved the well-being of our familieS and communities. Even though our knowledge of the physical world has increased tremendously, we remain ignorant of life's spiritual dimension. The hatred that separates people, nations and races is the same as it always has been.

As a result, the world is beset by problems that seem insoluble: war, famine, environmental pollution, drug abuse, AIDS, family breakdown, crime and suicide. Who has the solutions to these problems? Government institutions certainly do not have the answers, nor can we expect them to. Neither will the ultimate solution be found in a scientific research institute or laboratory. The established religious institutions, for all their vigor and long-standing dedication, have been unable to prevent this crisis from developing. Their moral authority has been severely questioned.
A New Expression of Truth is Needed.

A deeper analysis of the problems in our society reveals that they are not new. In fact, the failures of our modern civilization are the result of a deeper cause, which can be traced back to the beginnings of humankind. We observe that throughout history, people have striven for happiness and yet have indulged in attitudes and behaviors which lead to unhappiness and utter misery. Why is it that human beings have always longed for peace and brotherhood, and yet have caused so much conflict and suffering? Are love and hatred, good and evil destined to coexist, as some believe, so that lasting peace and harmony can never be achieved? If the world was created by a loving God, why is there so much suffering?

These and many other difficult questions touch upon the very essence of our being. What is the purpose of our life? What is our origin and destiny? Does God exist, and if so, how can we know God? Humankind has sought to answer these questions through religion, which is a spiritual, internal path, and through science, which deals with the external world. However, religion and science have interpreted reality in conflicting ways, leading to confusion and conflict. To move beyond the present impasse, religion and science must be brought into harmony by a higher understanding of truth, one which interprets the spiritual and material aspects of life within one consistent framework.

To have a real effect in the world, this higher understanding of truth should also solve the inconsistencies within and between religions, creating the basis for reconciliation among religions and cultures. The major religions, based upon teachings given in the far-distant past, do not compel the intellect of modern people. In particular, this new expression of truth must clarify the meaning of the Bible and all the world's scriptures, paving the way for the world's religions to resolve their internal struggles and become resources for building world peace.

Furthermore, the true nature of God must be revealed, enabling us to know God through both logic and heart, and thus leading all people through the power of their consciences to lives of goodness. The new truth should reveal the source of the contradiction within the human heart, and show us how we can resolve the conflict between the mind and body. If we find peace within ourselves as individuals, then peace within families, communities, nations and the world will become a real possibility."

It goes on to talk about original sin but,

you know what, after reading this small part, I started to get tired already. Flashbacks of my religious past.

What a great quote... Whoever the sect is, they have a good copy writer. I can't blame you for wanting to sleep though...

This is the sort of cleverly worded article that bypasses logic. It's a little like one of those questionaires that lead you to an answer.

I once read a book with similar gloom and doom about the world, it had a graph showing deaths from wars over the last century. It appeared that death was increasing but on closer inspection, the graph was rigged so that WW1 was at the right and all the mini wars were on the left. The problem of using this type of argument is that it's too easy to manipulate.

[kiki5711]

Hey, very good topic.

It goes on to talk about original sin but,

you know what, after reading this small part, I started to get tired already. Flashbacks of my religious past.

What a great quote... Whoever the sect is, they have a good copy writer. I can't blame you for wanting to sleep though...

This is the sort of cleverly worded article that bypasses logic. It's a little like one of those questionaires that lead you to an answer.

I once read a book with similar gloom and doom about the world, it had a graph showing deaths from wars over the last century. It appeared that death was increasing but on closer inspection, the graph was rigged so that WW1 was at the right and all the mini wars were on the left. The problem of using this type of argument is that it's too easy to manipulate.

What was the name of that book mightymouse? It sounds familiar. Actually the part I copy pasted above is from their "BOOK" not a pamphlet. And to tell you the truth a lot of what is in that book appealed to me. The reality hit later on when I realized I was being railroaded by the same people who were trying to teach me to live a higher truth life. It got ugly and real bad. (Need I tell you that I was always considered a "problem member"?) oh yea, the guilt trips shoved on me and the whole package.

[mightymouse]

I think it was called "Cosmic Conspiracy"