Do you hate Islam? mk II (mod split)

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Do you hate Islam? mk II (mod split)

Post by JOZeldenrust » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:56 pm

Topic split from here: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10115 - Charlou ...


I don't hate Islam or muslims, but some muslims do some pretty fucked up shit in the name of their fate. Islam isn't unique in this respect: other religions and political ideologies have caused their share of bloodshed, oppression and hatred.

I can't read Arabic, but I'm busy reading the Quran in a Dutch translation. I appreciate its poetic quality, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and it's not likely to convince me of the truth of Islam.

I appreciate the architecture, philosophy and literature of Mozarabic Spain. I consider them to be among the most exquisite works of medieval art. I also greatly value the influence that Muslim customs had on medieval Christian/European culture, the contributions Muslims have made to mathematics and astronomy, and the conservation of classical literary and philosophical works by Muslim scholars. However, I don't think any of these aspects of classical Muslim culture were the result of divine inspiration.

It's a shame to see that Islam has lost most of its luster. Contemporary Muslims aren't building Alhambras, discovering exoplanets, shifting paradigmas in topology or writing literary masterpieces. They're eeking out a living under the shadow of oppression by corrupt governments, divided by tribal, religious, economic and cultural boundaries, bound by an unjustified sense of loyalty towards the most vile exponents of their religion.

So in all, Islam evokes a feeling of nostalgia in me, and I feel a little sorry for most Muslims.

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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by Tigger » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:13 pm

JOZeldenrust wrote:I don't hate Islam or muslims, but some muslims do some pretty fucked up shit in the name of their fate. Islam isn't unique in this respect: other religions and political ideologies have caused their share of bloodshed, oppression and hatred.

I can't read Arabic, but I'm busy reading the Quran in a Dutch translation. I appreciate its poetic quality, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and it's not likely to convince me of the truth of Islam.

I appreciate the architecture, philosophy and literature of Mozarabic Spain. I consider them to be among the most exquisite works of medieval art. I also greatly value the influence that Muslim customs had on medieval Christian/European culture, the contributions Muslims have made to mathematics and astronomy, and the conservation of classical literary and philosophical works by Muslim scholars. However, I don't think any of these aspects of classical Muslim culture were the result of divine inspiration.

It's a shame to see that Islam has lost most of its luster. Contemporary Muslims aren't building Alhambras, discovering exoplanets, shifting paradigmas in topology or writing literary masterpieces. They're eeking out a living under the shadow of oppression by corrupt governments, divided by tribal, religious, economic and cultural boundaries, bound by an unjustified sense of loyalty towards the most vile exponents of their religion.

So in all, Islam evokes a feeling of nostalgia in me, and I feel a little sorry for most Muslims.
Great post Joz. I don't know if you've read any other posts by the OP, but I wouldn't rise to any of them.
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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by JOZeldenrust » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:34 pm

Tigger wrote:
JOZeldenrust wrote:*SNIP*
Great post Joz. I don't know if you've read any other posts by the OP, but I wouldn't rise to any of them.
Yeah, I've seen them. I think he/she actually means well, but is stuck in the ideological idiom and logical "frame of reference" of Islam. Getting anywhere towards a meaningful discussion on Islam seems pretty unlikely to me.
Last edited by JOZeldenrust on Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by charlou » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:12 am

JOZeldenrust wrote:I don't hate Islam or muslims, but some muslims do some pretty fucked up shit in the name of their fate. Islam isn't unique in this respect: other religions and political ideologies have caused their share of bloodshed, oppression and hatred.

I can't read Arabic, but I'm busy reading the Quran in a Dutch translation. I appreciate its poetic quality, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and it's not likely to convince me of the truth of Islam.

I appreciate the architecture, philosophy and literature of Mozarabic Spain. I consider them to be among the most exquisite works of medieval art. I also greatly value the influence that Muslim customs had on medieval Christian/European culture, the contributions Muslims have made to mathematics and astronomy, and the conservation of classical literary and philosophical works by Muslim scholars. However, I don't think any of these aspects of classical Muslim culture were the result of divine inspiration.

It's a shame to see that Islam has lost most of its luster. Contemporary Muslims aren't building Alhambras, discovering exoplanets, shifting paradigmas in topology or writing literary masterpieces. They're eeking out a living under the shadow of oppression by corrupt governments, divided by tribal, religious, economic and cultural boundaries, bound by an unjustified sense of loyalty towards the most vile exponents of their religion.

So in all, Islam evokes a feeling of nostalgia in me, and I feel a little sorry for most Muslims.
Nicely put, JOZ.
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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by Trolldor » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:16 am

Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by JOZeldenrust » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:31 am

born-again-atheist wrote:Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
It has, very much so, and largely not for the better. In the 11th - 14th century the Muslim world was the most technologically advanced culture on the planet, without them the 12th century European renaissance would've been unthinkable, which would in turn make the 16th century renaissance unthinkable. The Islamic theology of Averoes or Avicenna is completely different from modern Islam. There's suni's, shi'ites, Arabs, Persians, Turks. There's political Islam, secular Islam (most Turks), sufi mysticism, the flavours of Islam are almost as numerous as the flavours of Christianity.

Many people have such a one-dimensional idea of Islam. Islam isn't simple, it's not backward or inherently evil. It's one of the richest cultures in the world, as are Christianity, Judaism, Budhism etc. I really wish people - including muslims - would take the trouble to get to know Islamic culture. Persian poetry is so beautiful, the imagery of Islam is rich and provocative, muslim history is as fascinating as the history of any culture.

Just realize, we owe the concept of courtesy to the Arabs.

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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by Bella Fortuna » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:34 am

That's very nicely put, JOZ. Thank you for that.
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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by Trolldor » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:56 am

JOZeldenrust wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
It has, very much so, and largely not for the better. In the 11th - 14th century the Muslim world was the most technologically advanced culture on the planet, without them the 12th century European renaissance would've been unthinkable, which would in turn make the 16th century renaissance unthinkable. The Islamic theology of Averoes or Avicenna is completely different from modern Islam. There's suni's, shi'ites, Arabs, Persians, Turks. There's political Islam, secular Islam (most Turks), sufi mysticism, the flavours of Islam are almost as numerous as the flavours of Christianity.

Many people have such a one-dimensional idea of Islam. Islam isn't simple, it's not backward or inherently evil. It's one of the richest cultures in the world, as are Christianity, Judaism, Budhism etc. I really wish people - including muslims - would take the trouble to get to know Islamic culture. Persian poetry is so beautiful, the imagery of Islam is rich and provocative, muslim history is as fascinating as the history of any culture.

Just realize, we owe the concept of courtesy to the Arabs.
On the shoulders of giants. It wasn't Islamic Culture that was at the height of the world, it was the culture they grew from.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:24 am

born-again-atheist wrote:
JOZeldenrust wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
It has, very much so, and largely not for the better. In the 11th - 14th century the Muslim world was the most technologically advanced culture on the planet, without them the 12th century European renaissance would've been unthinkable, which would in turn make the 16th century renaissance unthinkable. The Islamic theology of Averoes or Avicenna is completely different from modern Islam. There's suni's, shi'ites, Arabs, Persians, Turks. There's political Islam, secular Islam (most Turks), sufi mysticism, the flavours of Islam are almost as numerous as the flavours of Christianity.

Many people have such a one-dimensional idea of Islam. Islam isn't simple, it's not backward or inherently evil. It's one of the richest cultures in the world, as are Christianity, Judaism, Budhism etc. I really wish people - including muslims - would take the trouble to get to know Islamic culture. Persian poetry is so beautiful, the imagery of Islam is rich and provocative, muslim history is as fascinating as the history of any culture.

Just realize, we owe the concept of courtesy to the Arabs.
On the shoulders of giants. It wasn't Islamic Culture that was at the height of the world, it was the culture they grew from.
There is certainly an element of this. As islam grew, it drew in many diverse cultures and their discoveries were pooled for the first time in history. The Roman empire also oversaw a period of discovery and innovation for very similar reasons.

It is also worth noting that moorish Spain was, for many years, largely segregated from mainstream islamic culture and in fact had many skirmishes and outright wars with Damascus. It was under the caliphate of Cordoba that most of the advances in culture took place - including the construction of the Alhambra palace - and at this time integration of muslims, jews and christians was actively encouraged, reaching its peak during the convivencia in Toledo.

Like all religious cultures, islam has had its golden ages and its dark ages. And like all religious cultures, the golden ages have taken place during the periods of greatest tolerance and diversity and the dark ages during the periods of strictest, dogmatic adherence to religion.
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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by charlou » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:46 am

born-again-atheist wrote:Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
Actually, you're right ... It's the culture of the people JOZ is describing, of which Islam was only a part. The dogma is in domination at the moment.
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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by JimC » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:55 am

Charlou wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
Actually, you're right ... It's the culture of the people JOZ is describing, of which Islam was only a part. The dogma is in domination at the moment.
And what has certainly changed, since WW2 and particularly in the last 20 or 30 years, is the media spotlight. This (as always) focuses on the extremes (which are often happy to be focused on...), and a snowballing effect occurs. Not only does the general public in the west think of extremists when they hear the word islam, but the extremists themselves may well have gained strength within islam partly because of publicity (of course, there are many other factors as well)
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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:16 am

JimC wrote:
Charlou wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
Actually, you're right ... It's the culture of the people JOZ is describing, of which Islam was only a part. The dogma is in domination at the moment.
And what has certainly changed, since WW2 and particularly in the last 20 or 30 years, is the media spotlight. This (as always) focuses on the extremes (which are often happy to be focused on...), and a snowballing effect occurs. Not only does the general public in the west think of extremists when they hear the word islam, but the extremists themselves may well have gained strength within islam partly because of publicity (of course, there are many other factors as well)
There is another small thing that has changed - in the last 100 years or so.

The most reactionary, insular and barbaric bastards in islam suddenly found that they were sitting right on top of the hugest oil reserves in the world. This made those bastards incredibly rich and expanded their influence far beyond the reaches of their arid, useless peninsula. Of course, they credit this bounty to their sky-daddy's all-knowing plan for them! :roll:
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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by Mung Bean » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:31 am

I'm not going to bother replying to any of mandelson's posts as I prefer my pointless exercises to be more amusing. Anyway..........
JOZeldenrust wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
It has, very much so, and largely not for the better. In the 11th - 14th century the Muslim world was the most technologically advanced culture on the planet, without them the 12th century European renaissance would've been unthinkable, which would in turn make the 16th century renaissance unthinkable. The Islamic theology of Averoes or Avicenna is completely different from modern Islam. There's suni's, shi'ites, Arabs, Persians, Turks. There's political Islam, secular Islam (most Turks), sufi mysticism, the flavours of Islam are almost as numerous as the flavours of Christianity.

Many people have such a one-dimensional idea of Islam. Islam isn't simple, it's not backward or inherently evil. It's one of the richest cultures in the world, as are Christianity, Judaism, Budhism etc. I really wish people - including muslims - would take the trouble to get to know Islamic culture. Persian poetry is so beautiful, the imagery of Islam is rich and provocative, muslim history is as fascinating as the history of any culture.

Just realize, we owe the concept of courtesy to the Arabs.
I largely agree with this and with your earlier post about architecture, etc. I've always been a fan of the geometric art. Not so much of the "naturalistic" art as I find the style rather stilted, much like a lot of Indian art. The best of Islamic architecture totally rocks though. A lot of middle Eastern music is also great, although you couldn't really call most of it Islamic as such.

I would make one point though. I think Islam, in its original form, really is backward and inherently evil. The Wahhabis really are the closest to the Islam of Mohammed,. They are the closest in culture, theology, dogma, language and geography. Make no mistake. Those guys really do know their Islam.

That doesn't mean that all variants of Islam are necessarily evil, although frankly I think all of them have some degree of backwardness in relation to 21st humanism. It's difficult for them to avoid that given that they are, to a greater or lesser degree, attempting to hold onto something from the seventh century.
Last edited by Mung Bean on Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:17 pm

JOZeldenrust wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
It has, very much so, and largely not for the better. In the 11th - 14th century the Muslim world was the most technologically advanced culture on the planet, without them the 12th century European renaissance would've been unthinkable, which would in turn make the 16th century renaissance unthinkable. The Islamic theology of Averoes or Avicenna is completely different from modern Islam. There's suni's, shi'ites, Arabs, Persians, Turks. There's political Islam, secular Islam (most Turks), sufi mysticism, the flavours of Islam are almost as numerous as the flavours of Christianity.

Many people have such a one-dimensional idea of Islam. Islam isn't simple, it's not backward or inherently evil. It's one of the richest cultures in the world, as are Christianity, Judaism, Budhism etc. I really wish people - including muslims - would take the trouble to get to know Islamic culture. Persian poetry is so beautiful, the imagery of Islam is rich and provocative, muslim history is as fascinating as the history of any culture.

Just realize, we owe the concept of courtesy to the Arabs.
I have to take issue with this, a bit. Yes, Islam is not simple. However, it is backward, today. One just needs to look at "Muslim countries" to see its backwardness, as well as the rampant violence, misogyny and other nastiness that is generated by this religion.

I also take a bit of an issue with it being called "one of the richest cultures in the world." It is a religion, not a culture. Just as there is no "Christian culture" per se (because there are many different cultures that practice Christianity, so to Islam is practiced by many different cultures. There is Arab culture and subcultures, and there is Persian culture and Indian culture, and all of them practice a lot of Islam.

Evil, of course, is a mental construct and whether it is "evil" or "inherently evil" is purely a matter of opinion. In my opinion, it is inherently evil (pernicious/bad for the world) because of its oppressive nature (rendering women and dhimmi second class citizens, etc.).

Persian culture is not "Islamic culture", or should not be, any more than American culture is "Christian culture." Much Persian culture is not dependent on Islam, although the followers of Islam hijack the culture by imposing the religion on those that do not wish it.

In any case, there are, as you say, flavors of Islam. However, that doesn't make it good, IMHO. It's like flavors of shit. They're still shit. It's still a false belief system - it's based on a fundamental falsehood: the existence of Allah. It is also based on the fundamental falsehood that Mohammed did what is written in the Qu'ran, and that the Qu'ran is some sort of "divine" document. No matter what the flavor, that's all false.

Lastly, I take some issue with the concept of divorcing a religion from its followers. The religion is what its followers make of it. If a person does something bad and they did so because they thought they were following Islam, it's meaningless to say that it's not "true Islam." There is no objective judge of true Islam or true Christianity, and all interpretations have some logical flow from the core documents and principles. The problem is not whether horrid people are following the true Islam, or twisting it for their own purposes. The problem is that "enough" (not all, or even most) people in the world think Islam commands them to commit, or tacitly authorizes, horrific acts. Islam is evil because many of the people that claim to follow it do evil things. IMHO.

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Re: Do you hate Islam ?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:30 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:
JOZeldenrust wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:Islam hasn't changed, not in centuries.
It has, very much so, and largely not for the better. In the 11th - 14th century the Muslim world was the most technologically advanced culture on the planet, without them the 12th century European renaissance would've been unthinkable, which would in turn make the 16th century renaissance unthinkable. The Islamic theology of Averoes or Avicenna is completely different from modern Islam. There's suni's, shi'ites, Arabs, Persians, Turks. There's political Islam, secular Islam (most Turks), sufi mysticism, the flavours of Islam are almost as numerous as the flavours of Christianity.

Many people have such a one-dimensional idea of Islam. Islam isn't simple, it's not backward or inherently evil. It's one of the richest cultures in the world, as are Christianity, Judaism, Budhism etc. I really wish people - including muslims - would take the trouble to get to know Islamic culture. Persian poetry is so beautiful, the imagery of Islam is rich and provocative, muslim history is as fascinating as the history of any culture.

Just realize, we owe the concept of courtesy to the Arabs.
On the shoulders of giants. It wasn't Islamic Culture that was at the height of the world, it was the culture they grew from.
There is certainly an element of this. As islam grew, it drew in
Islamic theocracies conquered...
Xamonas Chegwé wrote: many diverse cultures and their discoveries were pooled for the first time in history. The Roman empire also oversaw a period of discovery and innovation for very similar reasons.

It is also worth noting that moorish Spain was, for many years, largely segregated from mainstream islamic culture and in fact had many skirmishes and outright wars with Damascus. It was under the caliphate of Cordoba that most of the advances in culture took place - including the construction of the Alhambra palace - and at this time integration of muslims, jews and christians was actively encouraged, reaching its peak during the convivencia in Toledo.
That was, of course, after the Muslim holy war to conquer Spain in the first place, which it had no business doing, and put the people there under the boot heel of an Islamic theocracy. While they were being so advanced in Spain, they moved into France and tried to conquer that land too, but luckily they were stopped at Poitier.

Islam tends to be portrayed as quite noble in "allowing" other religions to exist within its domain. However, it always requires subservience to Islam in order to obtain its "protection." Even in Spain, Christoforos was executed by Muslims because he, what? You guessed it - converted from Islam to Christianity in the 8th century.

And, remember, even the Holy Land was a Muslim conquest. Mohammed was doing his thing in the first half of the 7th century, and what was that, exactly? Conquering Christian and Jewish lands, and forcing various peoples to pay protection money. They conquered Jerusalem and in the 800s they destroyed non-Muslim prayer houses and of the Church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem, and built the Dome of the Rock right on top of the holiest Christian and Jewish site.

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