Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

[Seth]

It's the quintessential question of "why is there evil in the world" that has been answered by the faithful for a long, long time in a manner satisfactory to them...

Not really. As a former person of faith, i can tell you that the answers to the problem of evil, and a lot of other things, were never satisfactory to me.

Then you weren't really a person of faith, now were you? I'm in the same boat. I thought I was a person of faith. I desperately wanted to be a person of faith, but in the end reason overcame the desire for faith.

The indoctrination and socialization made it quite difficult for me to admit it that to myself.

Yup. Religion is a strong meme indeed. That's why it exists.

It was not that I was stupid about it, it was that, after I had better reasoning skills than the child I was, I didn't truly see the possibility that I could really honestly take a hard look at the whole god concept and reject it. Like the bear kept in a tiny cage so long that, upon being let out, it continues to pace back and forth over the same few square feet.

Yup. For me, however, the experience, and my reason and understanding have lead me to become a non-theistic Tolerist™ rather than an Atheist because I understand the utility of religion in society and see its beneficial effects everywhere, both in society and in individual's lives, which leaves me in the position of not being part of such faith but also acknowledging and respecting the power that it has to benefit people's lives for those who are.

It helps many billions of people make it through the day, it gives them solace and comfort when things are bad, and I'm not arrogant enough to wish to deny them that comfort and solace, provided that their manifestations of their faith are peaceable in nature. So long as their delusions are harmless, I'm satisfied to mind my own business.

But no, I shouldn't get offended by that cross at all, any more than Christians should get offended over a "Piss Christ" at the 9-11 memorial.

Here I disagree. Veneration of an object as a religious icon is hardly the same thing as desecration of a venerated religious object as part of a political or religious statement or protest. The fact that some people believe that God made that cross and that it has religious power or significance in no way infringes on an Atheist's rights or ability to practice their own religion, nor does it denigrate or desecrate any object of veneration of Atheists, so including a "work of art" that deliberately denigrates and desecrates that which others venerate is something entirely different because that is a fundamentally political or religious statement of antipathy towards religion, not an artifact of the event.

Now, if "Piss Christ" had been found untouched and unharmed in the rubble of the Twin Towers, I would agree that its display in the memorial might be appropriate. But to include it now would be to allow a protest statement at what is in fact a historical exhibit, which is inappropriate.

[hadespussercats]

The atheist group has the right to ask that it be removed.

Sure they do.

But IMHO atheists shouldn't be so ready to accept the symbolism the religious impute to such objects. Are we relic-worshippers, too? What do I care if a so-called holy man sprinkled water on a piece of steel? I don't think those wafers were suddenly made into Jesus-- why would I believe baptized steel is suddenly a holy relic?

There are so many other ways to approach this issue that would be so more meaningful and effective for the cause of atheists in America. Why aren't atheist artists working to have their own work at the site-- work that might even re-contextualize that cross as a piece of material history-- not a holy relic?

What do we really stand to gain by choosing to embitter most Americans against our worthwhile goals? Someday I might have to make a stand against creation science in my local school system-- it'd be nice if the other parents in my district saw me as representative of a group typified by good sense and sensitivity, who simply wants reason to rule in public life. But this vituperative reaction to a conveniently-shaped hunk of metal is just not reasonable.

[cursuswalker]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Okay, so the muslims who died on 9/11 should also have a crescent moon erected in their honour right?

[charlou]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Okay, so the muslims who died on 9/11 should also have a crescent moon erected in their honour right?

I imagine there were plenty of bits of debris resembling something Islamic that could have been brought to this memorial as a token of human harmony and peace.

[cursuswalker]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Okay, so the muslims who died on 9/11 should also have a crescent moon erected in their honour right?

I imagine there were plenty of bits of debris resembling something Islamic that could have been brought to this memorial as a token of human harmony and peace.

Quite. So New York's Islamic community should immediately set about finding such a piece of debris and DEMAND it is erected. After all, under the US constitution they cannot be refused right?

Or indeed any other religion whose adherents were killed. And I'm sure there must have been at LEAST one pastafarian among the dead.

OR.....

They could just erect a non-denominational monument?

[charlou]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Okay, so the muslims who died on 9/11 should also have a crescent moon erected in their honour right?

I imagine there were plenty of bits of debris resembling something Islamic that could have been brought to this memorial as a token of human harmony and peace.

Quite. So New York's Islamic community should immediately set about finding such a piece of debris and DEMAND it is erected.

But that would be so ... so ... insensitive

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There was one religious sign that most people missed there.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

The sign of the FSM.

[hadespussercats]

Jersey City used a steel girder as a memorial-- but it's not evocative of any other shapes. I like it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/286 ... 347776560/

[cursuswalker]

There was one religious sign that most people missed there.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

The sign of the FSM.

It's a miracle!

[Seabass]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Okay, so the muslims who died on 9/11 should also have a crescent moon erected in their honour right?

If relatives of muslim 9/11 victims found a crescent moon shaped piece of debris and wrote the names of their fallen loved ones on it, and a public museum decided to add this piece of debris to a 9/11 memorial, no, I'd have no problem with it.

[Seth]

The atheist group has the right to ask that it be removed.

Sure they do.

But IMHO atheists shouldn't be so ready to accept the symbolism the religious impute to such objects. Are we relic-worshippers, too? What do I care if a so-called holy man sprinkled water on a piece of steel? I don't think those wafers were suddenly made into Jesus-- why would I believe baptized steel is suddenly a holy relic?

There are so many other ways to approach this issue that would be so more meaningful and effective for the cause of atheists in America. Why aren't atheist artists working to have their own work at the site-- work that might even re-contextualize that cross as a piece of material history-- not a holy relic?

What do we really stand to gain by choosing to embitter most Americans against our worthwhile goals? Someday I might have to make a stand against creation science in my local school system-- it'd be nice if the other parents in my district saw me as representative of a group typified by good sense and sensitivity, who simply wants reason to rule in public life. But this vituperative reaction to a conveniently-shaped hunk of metal is just not reasonable.

Well said. Atheists are usually their own worst enemy when it comes to religion

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"usually"

[Hermit]

Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Oops. Wrong thread.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Ever laugh at someone who is saying that? Very situation. I have smirked more than one, quietly of course.

[Hermit]

Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Ever laugh at someone who is saying that? Very situation. I have smirked more than one, quietly of course.

Certainly. Not just that one either.