Why don't agnostics pray?

[leo-rcc]

The point we are trying to make is that the other beliefs aren't "plonked" into atheism at all. Their atheism is a subset of their beliefs, not their beliefs a subset of their atheism.

edit: I'm pretty sure RB never said that agnostics need to be atheists.

[RuleBritannia]

The agnosticism stuff is a fairly minor point, and tbh I'm happy to concede it. - edit - actually I'm not, rereading what you said. Agnostics needn't be atheists. They can be anything.

The important point (for me) is that supernatural beliefs are categorised as just that, rather than automatically being plonked into atheism, because they come without a deity attached.

I never said all agnostics are atheists. If I did i'm sure you can quote where I said it, but you won't be able to because I didn't say it.

[Ele]

You are either an atheist or a theist, because you either believe or you don't. There is no halfway point. You can not simultaneously believe or not believe, and you can not do neither as an absence of position is the absence of belief.

You can believe something to exist but at the same time not believe that it is true or relevant. An absence of position can just be indifference or personal rejection... it does not necessarily signal an absence of belief. One man's supreme god may be another man's door to door snake oil salesman.

[RuleBritannia]

You are either an atheist or a theist, because you either believe or you don't. There is no halfway point. You can not simultaneously believe or not believe, and you can not do neither as an absence of position is the absence of belief.

You can believe something to exist but at the same time not believe that it is true or relevant. An absence of position can just be indifference or personal rejection... it does not necessarily signal an absence of belief. One man's supreme god may be another man's door to door snake oil salesman.

Saying that there is a middle position between belief and disbelief is like saying there's a middle position between something being an apple and not being and apple. It's crackers!

[Twiglet]

The agnosticism stuff is a fairly minor point, and tbh I'm happy to concede it. - edit - actually I'm not, rereading what you said. Agnostics needn't be atheists. They can be anything.

The important point (for me) is that supernatural beliefs are categorised as just that, rather than automatically being plonked into atheism, because they come without a deity attached.

I never said all agnostics are atheists. If I did i'm sure you can quote where I said it, but you won't be able to because I didn't say it.

Having re-read you're right on the agnostic thing, and in fact our positions on that coincide on that. However, they certainly don't coincide on the atheist/theist position, which as far as I am concerned was a much more important point. The reason I bought up agnosticism at all, is because I, as a matter of convenience and possibly inaccurately, tend to lump spirtualists of all varieties under "agnostic" if I can't be bothered to go into details.

[RuleBritannia]

The agnosticism stuff is a fairly minor point, and tbh I'm happy to concede it. - edit - actually I'm not, rereading what you said. Agnostics needn't be atheists. They can be anything.

The important point (for me) is that supernatural beliefs are categorised as just that, rather than automatically being plonked into atheism, because they come without a deity attached.

I never said all agnostics are atheists. If I did i'm sure you can quote where I said it, but you won't be able to because I didn't say it.

Having re-read you're right on the agnostic thing, and in fact our positions on that coincide on that. However, they certainly don't coincide on the atheist/theist position, which as far as I am concerned was a much more important point. The reason I bought up agnosticism at all, is because I, as a matter of convenience and possibly inaccurately, tend to lump spirtualists of all varieties under "agnostic" if I can't be bothered to go into details.

You've pretty much just said everything I said on the first page:

Anyone and everyone, believers and non-believers are all agnostic when it comes to god, anyone who claims to be a gnostic is a fucking lier.

Agnosticism though says nothing about what you believe. When it comes to what you believe about god (or anything) there are only two options, they are jointly exhaustive and mutually exclusive i.e. a dichotomy.

If you can not say "I believe in a god", then you, by default, do not believe. You are an atheist whether you like it or not.

[Twiglet]

Yet you still dont seem to understand that your assertion in that post contradicts your subsequent argument that:

If we're only talking about communicating with the dead then the terms "theist" and "atheist" are not relevent as it would be a category error. .

I don't see why this is hard for you to acknowledge. Your original position was everyone who doesn't believe in Gods is an atheist "whether they like it or not" and proceed to contradict yourself by saying that people who believe they can communicate with spirits are a "category fail". That's a very basic logical flaw in your argument.

I stated and restated that I agree it's a category fail, and your first assertion is simply wrong.

[Ele]

You are either an atheist or a theist, because you either believe or you don't. There is no halfway point. You can not simultaneously believe or not believe, and you can not do neither as an absence of position is the absence of belief.

You can believe something to exist but at the same time not believe that it is true or relevant. An absence of position can just be indifference or personal rejection... it does not necessarily signal an absence of belief. One man's supreme god may be another man's door to door snake oil salesman.

Saying that there is a middle position between belief and disbelief is like saying there's a middle position between something being an apple and not being and apple. It's crackers!

What middle position? There does not even need to be one. You could tell me you're a doctor and your fan club could tell me "yeah he is a doctor, you should go see him". Your medicine might work for them but I know it doesn't work for me... and I don't hold much regard for your qualifications either, and I suspect you may even be a fraud. Are you still a doctor? Maybe so. But not to me. But you still exist and you hold sway over others despite whatever I believe about you being a real doctor or not.

[Svartalf]

but without definite proof of absence, and given the weird nature of the subject, concluding definitely in the non existence of the divine is as large a leap of faith as worshipping some magic man from the sky.

The only logical solution is to admit you don't know, and most likely won't ever know, if it's even possible to have definite knowledge (positive or negative) on the matter.
and of course that still frees you to act as if it didn't exist since it doesn't ever factor in the equation of actions and consequences.

Definite proof of absence? And what what tangible, observable, examinable evidence of non-existance look like?

Seems to me it'd look a lot like nothing, and we have plenty of that around.

Last time I checked such things dwelt in the same realms as the square root of -1

[Trolldor]

You are either an atheist or a theist, because you either believe or you don't. There is no halfway point. You can not simultaneously believe or not believe, and you can not do neither as an absence of position is the absence of belief.

You can believe something to exist but at the same time not believe that it is true or relevant. An absence of position can just be indifference or personal rejection... it does not necessarily signal an absence of belief. One man's supreme god may be another man's door to door snake oil salesman.

You can not believe that God exists and at the same time not believe that God is true. That's like saying Cancer kills people but nobody's ever died of cancer.

Also, people are equating the absence of belief as an active stance - it is not, it is a passive one. The absence of belief is the state that remains when you do not have belief.

[RuleBritannia]

Yet you still dont seem to understand that your assertion in that post contradicts your subsequent argument that:

If we're only talking about communicating with the dead then the terms "theist" and "atheist" are not relevent as it would be a category error. .

I don't see why this is hard for you to acknowledge. Your original position was everyone who doesn't believe in Gods is an atheist "whether they like it or not" and proceed to contradict yourself by saying that people who believe they can communicate with spirits are a "category fail". That's a very basic logical flaw in your argument.

I stated and restated that I agree it's a category fail, and your first assertion is simply wrong.

There is no contradiction. "Theist" and "atheist" only refer to beliefs about god. If you bring up those terms when talking about anything else it is a category error.

Why is this so hard for you to get?

[Trolldor]

"whether they like it or not" and proceed to contradict yourself by saying that people who believe they can communicate with spirits are a "category fail".

You don't even see why you're wrong there, do you?

[RuleBritannia]

"whether they like it or not" and proceed to contradict yourself by saying that people who believe they can communicate with spirits are a "category fail".

You don't even see why you're wrong there, do you?

It's a category fail to say that people who believe they can communicate with spirits are atheists or theists.

[Trolldor]

I was referring to Twig. He's saying that your first statement which says only in relation to gods contradicts the second which is in relation to dead spirits.

Means one of two things, he's missing something important or Gods are dead spirits to him.

[RuleBritannia]

I was referring to Twig. He's saying that your first statement which says only in relation to gods contradicts the second which is in relation to dead spirits.

Means one of two things, he's missing something important or Gods are dead spirits to him.