Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

[hadespussercats]

Anyone see Jon Stewart's commentary on this on his show tonight?

Paraphrasing:

"Atheists! Go to h... rrr, atheists..."

"Atheists, why do you care? If you don't like the idea of it being a cross, why not call it a cross-beam, or a steel t-shaped thingy?"

re David Silverman: "I'm president of American Atheists because I want to make sure that even people who are ambivalent towards our cause hate us."

Yup.

[Svartalf]

And why wouldn't jon stewart enjoy a pretty necklace (the kind made with a tyre and petrol)... naming it different changes things so much...

[FBM]

Cultural response

Some saw the crossed metal as a Christian cross and felt its survival was symbolic. Fr. Brian Jordan OFM, a Roman Catholic Franciscan priest, spoke over it and declared it to be a "symbol of hope... [a] symbol of faith... [a] symbol of healing".[7] One minister at the site says that when a family of a man who died in the attacks came to the cross shrine and left personal effects there, "It was as if the cross took in the grief and loss. I never felt Jesus more."[12]

A replica has been installed at the gravesite of Father Mychal Judge, a New York Fire Department chaplain who was killed in the collapse of WTC 1 on September 11.[13] Other surviving crossbeams were salvaged from the rubble; one was given to a Far Rockaway, New York chapter of the Knights of Columbus in 2004.[14] Another replica cross was fashioned by ironworkers from Trade Center steel and installed at Graymoor, the Upper West Side headquarters of the Society of the Atonement, a religious order of Franciscan friars.[15]

The nearby St. Paul's Chapel, which survived the destruction and was a refuge for survivors and site laborers, sells various replicas of the cross including lapel pins and rosaries.[16] The cross even inspired laborers on "The Pile" to get tattoos.[17]

The potential use of the cross in the World Trade Center Memorial has been controversial. Many groups such as families of the victims want the cross to be included,[18] while other organizations, notably American Atheists and the Coalition for Jewish Concerns,[19][20] disagree. "The World Trade Center cross has become a christian icon. It has been blessed by so-called holy men and presented as a reminder that their God, who couldn’t be bothered to stop the Muslim terrorists or prevent 3,000 people from being killed in his name, cared only enough to bestow upon us some rubble that resembles a cross," said David Silverman, the President of American Atheists.[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_cross

The religious right won't rest until they have control. They are hijacking 9/11 for their political agenda. That's opprtunistic and disengenuous. They're taking advantage of the special emotional responses to the tragedy and injecting their brainwashing bullshit magic skydaddy story where it doesn't belong, then dumping the cost on the taxpayers.

There are plenty of non-cricifix shaped relics to go around. Why do you think the powers that be chose the jeebus-loves-us one?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OBnbmP5 ... ure=relmfu[/youtube]

[charlou]

From the wiki FBM posted:

It has been blessed by so-called holy men and presented as a reminder that their God, who couldn’t be bothered to stop the Muslim terrorists or prevent 3,000 people from being killed in his name, cared only enough to bestow upon us some rubble that resembles a cross," said David Silverman, the President of American Atheists.

[leo-rcc]

Quick question.

Has the government paid for that steel crossbeam to be placed there or was it already there and put upright by the construction workers?

[Hermit]

Has the government paid for that steel crossbeam to be placed there or was it already there and put upright by the construction workers?

Using largely government funds, that steel crossbeam has been relocated from the site of one of the towers to the September 11 Memorial and Museum, which is itself largely government funded and situated on government owned land. Requests by non-christian denominations to contribute appropriate symbols have been not so much dismissed as simply ignored. FBM is right: "The religious right won't rest until they have control. They are hijacking 9/11 for their political agenda. That's opportunistic and disingenuous. They're taking advantage of the special emotional responses to the tragedy and injecting their brainwashing bullshit magic sky-daddy story where it doesn't belong, then dumping the cost on the taxpayers."

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The atheist group has the right to ask that it be removed.

[Pensioner]

This is one of those debates where I think good points are being made by everyone.

I agree with this post. If a piece of metal was found in the shape of a cross and that icon helps folk who have lost love ones some kind of comfort I don’t think I would want to shit on their parade.

[leo-rcc]

The atheist group has the right to ask that it be removed.

Yes they have, and the atheist group also could have handled it differently and not come out looking like some bunch of anal retentive cry-babies. It's their call, and not mine, but I sure don't agree with their decision which is my right.

[FBM]

This is one of those debates where I think good points are being made by everyone.

I agree with this post. If a piece of metal was found in the shape of a cross and that icon helps folk who have lost love ones some kind of comfort I don’t think I would want to shit on their parade.

They're not after your government. And what about the non-xtian survivors and families? They get ignored at best, misrepresented at worst, like they don't count unless they toe the xtian agenda. Governments shouldn't do this sort of thing.

And if the atheists come across like jerks, it's because the corporate media are toeing the agenda of those who have bought the government, or large parts of it, and present the atheists in the worst light. $$$

[leo-rcc]

And if the atheists come across like jerks, it's because the corporate media are toeing the agenda of those who have bought the government, or large parts of it, and present the atheists in the worst light. $$$

Or because they genuinely come across like jerks.

[Seth]

From the wiki FBM posted:

It has been blessed by so-called holy men and presented as a reminder that their God, who couldn’t be bothered to stop the Muslim terrorists or prevent 3,000 people from being killed in his name, cared only enough to bestow upon us some rubble that resembles a cross," said David Silverman, the President of American Atheists.

Evidently, in his ignorance, he's never heard of the religious concept of "martyrdom," in which those who are killed for their faith are rewarded for doing so in heaven, or paradise, depending on which religion one subscribes to.

The people who perpetrated the attack did so with precisely that goal in mind, so it's hardly inconceivable that people would claim that those who died, died as martyrs in the war against radical Islam and are enjoying, or will enjoy, special grace from God as a result.

Atheists can think what they like, but people of faith have...well...faith, and they've been rebutting such challenges for some 2,011 years.

It's the quintessential question of "why is there evil in the world" that has been answered by the faithful for a long, long time in a manner satisfactory to them, so it's of no particular interest to them what Atheists think about it.

[Seth]

The atheist group has the right to ask that it be removed.

And the government has the authority to ignore them.

[Seth]

This is one of those debates where I think good points are being made by everyone.

I agree with this post. If a piece of metal was found in the shape of a cross and that icon helps folk who have lost love ones some kind of comfort I don’t think I would want to shit on their parade.

They're not after your government.

Of course they are. That's their only avenue of redress. If it was a private museum, they wouldn't have a prayer (pun intended) of prevailing. The only reason they even have a complaint is because it's a government-funded memorial. But that's also why they will lose.

And what about the non-xtian survivors and families? They get ignored at best, misrepresented at worst, like they don't count unless they toe the xtian agenda.

I'm pretty certain that the government will be very careful to recognize ALL of the faiths of the people who died there, precisely so that it cannot be alleged that they are favoring one religion over another, which is something they cannot do. Government, in this case, has full authority to recognize and conserve artifacts related to the religion of those who died because it's a matter of history. The attackers were radical Muslims, and their victims were members of many other religions. This was a RELIGIOUS attack, as well as a political one, and that is a fact of history that the government is obliged to document as a part of the memorial. The fact that the I-beams were given religious significance by the workers at the site was not the product of government, but the product of history and private action, so that does not violate the Establishment Clause. People are permitted to venerate whatever objects it pleases them to venerate, and government has a duty under the Free Exercise Clause to protect that veneration and that object, particularly in such unusual circumstances.

But the fact that one item was turned into a religious icon does not mean that government is "favoring" one religion by conserving the artifact, so long as it does not do so EXCLUSIVELY. And I seriously doubt the memorial will be exclusively Christian. If it turns out that way, I will join you in objecting to the content of the memorial.

You're making mountains out of molehills here.

Governments shouldn't do this sort of thing.

Your suggested sort of thing? No. What they are actually doing, which is not at all what you are suggesting, of course they should.

And if the atheists come across like jerks, it's because the corporate media are toeing the agenda of those who have bought the government, or large parts of it, and present the atheists in the worst light. $$$

Oh please, now it's a corporatist anti-atheist agenda at work? Give me a break! Atheists are perfectly capable of acting like jerks without some grand conspiracy theory against them. The nitwit in the article is a prime example of exactly that.

[Robert_S]

It's the quintessential question of "why is there evil in the world" that has been answered by the faithful for a long, long time in a manner satisfactory to them...

Not really. As a former person of faith, i can tell you that the answers to the problem of evil, and a lot of other things, were never satisfactory to me. The indoctrination and socialization made it quite difficult for me to admit it that to myself. It was not that I was stupid about it, it was that, after I had better reasoning skills than the child I was, I didn't truly see the possibility that I could really honestly take a hard look at the whole god concept and reject it. Like the bear kept in a tiny cage so long that, upon being let out, it continues to pace back and forth over the same few square feet.

But no, I shouldn't get offended by that cross at all, any more than Christians should get offended over a "Piss Christ" at the 9-11 memorial.