Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

[Bella Fortuna]

I get it. You are against free speech in schools.

I am, to the extent that in, for example, Algebra class, the teacher determines what discussion is allowed in class, and that discussion should properly limited to algebra and the particular coursework at hand. Discussions of gods, monsters, fellatio, oceanography, the Andromeda Galaxy and the benefits of homeopathy ought properly be limited in order to allow algebra to be taught in algebra class.

So much for my dissertation about Zeus being sucked off by a moray eel in space...

I like the way you think....

...although, can we change Zeus to "Coito" and can we change the moray eel to Scarlett Johanssen and Amanda Seyfried? And, maybe put the three of us on secluded beach, instead of in space... yeah... that's it...

"You can't have free speech with a full mouth"

[Pappa]

Currently, primary school children here do learn about a selection of religions, but there is a heavy emphasis on Christianity almost all the time, with one special project being done each year about one of the other major religions. A couple of years ago, for example, my son visited a Hindu temple with the school and the spent the week learning about Hindu festivals, etc.. The quality of the (comparative) education about other religions seems very good, but they do use a volunteer evangelical minister to do a lot of their Christian RE, and I do find it a concern that an evangelical is being given free access to a captive audience of kids who's parents are completely unaware of that.

Sounds like Britain doesn't have separation of church and state.

It doesn't. We have a state religion, with the head of state also being head of the church.

[charlou]

Free speech as in using public money to help provide a meaningful education and make school life a bit interesting for young students.

While I agree that school life could do with greater piquing of interest .. I don't go along with exploiting that curiosity and thirst for knowledge by introducing dogma. That's what churches are for and people are free to go along, if that's their thing.

[Coito ergo sum]

I get it. You are against free speech in schools.

I am, to the extent that in, for example, Algebra class, the teacher determines what discussion is allowed in class, and that discussion should properly limited to algebra and the particular coursework at hand. Discussions of gods, monsters, fellatio, oceanography, the Andromeda Galaxy and the benefits of homeopathy ought properly be limited in order to allow algebra to be taught in algebra class.

Well that's not very inspiring is it? The position of the Andromeda Galaxy for example could be used as a way of calculating geometric variables. And surely algebra can be used in studying the depths of the oceans or the distance of the Titanic from the surface. The success of homeopathy is something that can be studied statistically, I'd have thought. Is there no role for algebra there?

Not in algebra class. The kids need to learn to do the algebra. You don't know the first thing about algebra, do you? Never took it, I assume?

Yes, algebra is used in a lot of sciences, but you have to learn algebra first. That's what is done in algebra class.

Anyway these are questions of detail. 'To the extent that' implies that teaching should take place that meets curriculum objectives. I suppose in the absence of an alternative education system I'd agree with that. But what about outside that 'extent'? What if one of the curriculum objectives is to introduce students to concepts around free speech, including concepts that people are free to express any position they like, regardless of how mad or irrational the concept appears to be to middle-class liberals?

That doesn't appear to have anything to do with algebra, geometry, etc. However, civics class might be a good place for discussion of freedom of speech, or a political science class, or the like. There is too much to learn in basic classes to muddle them up with unrelated concepts. To learn mathematics, you have to do math problems - learn how to work formulas and problems and then do tons of math problems to become proficient. Discussions of esoteric concepts of freedom of speech doesn't help that.

Either you are against free speech in schools or you are for it. What space are you prepared to allow for it?

I'm against it, of course. The administrators of the school can and should silence students. Kids can have discussions more freely at lunch time and if there is a "recess" period for younger students, they mill about as they please. But, when walking the halls of the school, they need to be quiet because others are reading, studying and learning. When in the library, they need to be quiet because people are reading, studying and learning. When they are in algebra class, they need to follow the teacher's instructions and do the required work to learn the subject. When they are in history class, they have to learn the subject matter and listen to the teacher. How would you set it up any differently?

[Exi5tentialist]

Currently, primary school children here do learn about a selection of religions, but there is a heavy emphasis on Christianity almost all the time, with one special project being done each year about one of the other major religions. A couple of years ago, for example, my son visited a Hindu temple with the school and the spent the week learning about Hindu festivals, etc.. The quality of the (comparative) education about other religions seems very good, but they do use a volunteer evangelical minister to do a lot of their Christian RE, and I do find it a concern that an evangelical is being given free access to a captive audience of kids who's parents are completely unaware of that.

Sounds like Britain doesn't have separation of church and state.

It doesn't. We have a state religion, with the head of state also being head of the church.

Nevertheless there is a difference between secularism as separation of church and state, and secularism as separation of church and state governance. Clearly the state must serve religious organisations, if only to empty their bins and regulate their coffee shops. I am totally in favour of disestablishment and the replacement of the monarchy, but secularism does not automatically mean that schools, as a state service, should be separated from church.

[Coito ergo sum]

I get it. You are against free speech in schools.

I am, to the extent that in, for example, Algebra class, the teacher determines what discussion is allowed in class, and that discussion should properly limited to algebra and the particular coursework at hand. Discussions of gods, monsters, fellatio, oceanography, the Andromeda Galaxy and the benefits of homeopathy ought properly be limited in order to allow algebra to be taught in algebra class.

So much for my dissertation about Zeus being sucked off by a moray eel in space...

I like the way you think....

...although, can we change Zeus to "Coito" and can we change the moray eel to Scarlett Johanssen and Amanda Seyfried? And, maybe put the three of us on secluded beach, instead of in space... yeah... that's it...

"You can't have free speech with a full mouth"

In that context, freedom of speech is extremely overrated....

[charlou]

Currently, primary school children here do learn about a selection of religions, but there is a heavy emphasis on Christianity almost all the time, with one special project being done each year about one of the other major religions. A couple of years ago, for example, my son visited a Hindu temple with the school and the spent the week learning about Hindu festivals, etc.. The quality of the (comparative) education about other religions seems very good, but they do use a volunteer evangelical minister to do a lot of their Christian RE, and I do find it a concern that an evangelical is being given free access to a captive audience of kids who's parents are completely unaware of that.

Sounds like Britain doesn't have separation of church and state.

It doesn't. We have a state religion, with the head of state also being head of the church.

Nevertheless there is a difference between secularism as separation of church and state, and secularism as separation of church and state governance. Clearly the state must serve religious organisations, if only to empty their bins and regulate their coffee shops. I am totally in favour of disestablishment and the replacement of the monarchy, but secularism does not automatically mean that schools, as a state service, should be separated from church.

Ironically, Brits are not 40% believers in creation and a 6000 yo Earth and the book of Revelation as a prediction of imminent end of days so let's make decisions to fulfill that prophesy

[Exi5tentialist]

Duplicate post. Must stop doing that.

[Exi5tentialist]

You don't know the first thing about algebra, do you? Never took it, I assume?

It is hard to take the rest of your post seriously given this assertion; I have no idea how you reached that conclusion.

Only to say that I was right, you have confirmed you are against all free speech in schools. I am surprised that you take the view that history students must shut up and listen.

Have you got anything to do with education, may I ask?

[Exi5tentialist]

Ironically, Brits are not 40% believers in creation and a 6000 yo Earth and the book of Revelation as a prediction of imminent end of days so let's make decisions to fulfill that prophesy

But we have a non-secular state, and religious indoctrination in our schools. Why are we Brits so enlightened? Surely we should all be parroting out what our RE teachers told us?

[Ian]

Sounds like Britain doesn't have separation of church and state.

It doesn't. We have a state religion, with the head of state also being head of the church.

And yet our officially secular country considers your theocracy to be an ally. What hypocrites we are to deal with the likes of you.

I'd be happier if the Queen at least switched the state religion from "Church of England" to "Jedi".

[Exi5tentialist]

Sounds like Britain doesn't have separation of church and state.

It doesn't. We have a state religion, with the head of state also being head of the church.

And yet our officially secular country considers your theocracy to be an ally. What hypocrites we are to deal with the likes of you.

I'd be happier if the Queen at least switched the state religion from "Church of England" to "Jedi".

I'd suggest the power of religion doesn't lie in the structure of the state. It lies in cultural assumptions underpinning the configuration of capitalism. In that respect this close alliance is perfectly understandable.

[charlou]

Ironically, Brits are not 40% believers in creation and a 6000 yo Earth and the book of Revelation as a prediction of imminent end of days so let's make decisions to fulfill that prophesy

But we have a non-secular state, and religious indoctrination in our schools. Why are we Brits so enlightened? Surely we should all be parroting out what our RE teachers told us?

There may be something to this ... but it's fucking complex.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Sounds like Britain doesn't have separation of church and state.

It doesn't. We have a state religion, with the head of state also being head of the church.

And yet our officially secular country considers your theocracy to be an ally. What hypocrites we are to deal with the likes of you.

I'd be happier if the Queen at least switched the state religion from "Church of England" to "Jedi".

I'd suggest the power of religion doesn't lie in the structure of the state. It lies in cultural assumptions underpinning the configuration of capitalism. In that respect this close alliance is perfectly understandable.

[charlou]

Ironically, Brits are not 40% believers in creation and a 6000 yo Earth and the book of Revelation as a prediction of imminent end of days so let's make decisions to fulfill that prophesy

But we have a non-secular state, and religious indoctrination in our schools. Why are we Brits so enlightened? Surely we should all be parroting out what our RE teachers told us?

There may be something to this ... but it's fucking complex.

Also, just because it happened this way in the past doesn't mean contriving to recapture elements of it will work in the future ... again for complex reasons.