Bill Maher - Atheism is Not a Religion

[Thumpalumpacus]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

I bet one could piss up a rope pretty easily, if the rope were made of a moisture-wicking fiber.

It's that pesky splash-back that's so vexatious.

[Bella Fortuna]

There are plenty of people who don't believe in a god yet do believe in the supernatural. (My neighbor, the Wiccan, perhaps, though I think she believes in a goddess.) When atheists themselves are this clumsy in their thinking about what they believe, it only makes matters more difficult for both sides.

This describes a good friend of mine, who calls herself an atheist yet firmly believes that her dead mother is still 'watching over' her. Makes me want to SCREAM!

Just out of curiosity, why does it affect you that way emotionally?

Because it's delusional. I have empathy because it arises from her inability to fully accept that her mother is gone, and she wants to retain some connection with her. I feel compassion for her loss and the emotional ties, but it's simply not true.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I use it because it scares theists.

[Drewish]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

I'd agree, but by my estimation atheists (like so many others) tend to overestimate how much of an individual they are.

This is true too. Much like punkers getting piercings and tattoos to express their individuality, only to find they've donned a uniform, too ... just one more to their liking.

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with having a group or a uniform. It's just a different culture. But if you're going to say that some people are more 'true' atheists than others based on their adherence to that culture, then you're turning atheism into something more than just a rejection of religion. Better to give such a thing another name and leaves atheism to mean nothing more than not believing in the supernatural.

Atheism does not mean not believing in the supernatural. This is yet another example of atheists being sloppy (and likely metaphysically and politically greedy) in their definitions. There are plenty of people who don't believe in a god yet do believe in the supernatural. (My neighbor, the Wiccan, perhaps, though I think she believes in a goddess.) When atheists themselves are this clumsy in their thinking about what they believe, it only makes matters more difficult for both sides.

So your example is somebody who believes in a goddess, and you yourself believe in a goddess but call yourself an atheist? I think you and I disagree about the definition of an atheist.

[hadespussercats]

But you could believe in ghosts, or psychics, or homeopathy, or... and not believe in God. You'd still be an atheist.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

But you could believe in ghosts, or psychics, or homeopathy, or... and not believe in God. You'd still be an atheist.

So what's the word for someone who doesn't believe in that crap either? Rationalist? Ratzylvanian?

[hadespussercats]

But you could believe in ghosts, or psychics, or homeopathy, or... and not believe in God. You'd still be an atheist.

So what's the word for someone who doesn't believe in that crap either? Rationalist? Ratzylvanian?

Smart.

[Audley Strange]

If such a thing exists as atheism, and I remain unconvinced about that, then I can't see how it would not take on aspects of a religion since even the suffix "ism" suggests a set of beliefs, problem is that's absent when one is an atheist. If there is a movement identifying itself as "atheism" I'd like to know what the central tenets are at least. On the contrary, I think the term is being appropriated by specific socio/political groups who have a habit of jumping on any bandwagon and taking the reins by fair means or foul and steering it towards their own political faiths.

The thing is, atheism is a person stance, not an organized position. Attempts to make it an position have routinely failed because we're so diverse, having most that one thing in common.

I'm an atheist. Atheism means nothing to me as a posture let alone an ideal. Certainly I think it should be kept a politically neutral term, but there are many voices on both side of the political spectrum who seem to assume Atheism is some kind of left liberalism (at the very least). My politics cannot be judged based on my non-acceptance of the concept that their are Gods, I'm not sure anyone's can.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If such a thing exists as atheism, and I remain unconvinced about that, then I can't see how it would not take on aspects of a religion since even the suffix "ism" suggests a set of beliefs, problem is that's absent when one is an atheist. If there is a movement identifying itself as "atheism" I'd like to know what the central tenets are at least. On the contrary, I think the term is being appropriated by specific socio/political groups who have a habit of jumping on any bandwagon and taking the reins by fair means or foul and steering it towards their own political faiths.

The thing is, atheism is a person stance, not an organized position. Attempts to make it an position have routinely failed because we're so diverse, having most that one thing in common.

I'm an atheist. Atheism means nothing to me as a posture let alone an ideal. Certainly I think it should be kept a politically neutral term, but there are many voices on both side of the political spectrum who seem to assume Atheism is some kind of left liberalism (at the very least). My politics cannot be judged based on my non-acceptance of the concept that their are Gods, I'm not sure anyone's can.

I see them as trying to force that position on atheism so they can lump atheists in with all those other bad things. Notice that our most strident atheist hater does this routinely.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I use it because it scares theists.

You really want to scare them? Tell them you're faithless. Because of the connotations that has regarding loyalty, it horrifies them.

[apophenia]

This is true too. Much like punkers getting piercings and tattoos to express their individuality, only to find they've donned a uniform, too ... just one more to their liking.

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with having a group or a uniform. It's just a different culture. But if you're going to say that some people are more 'true' atheists than others based on their adherence to that culture, then you're turning atheism into something more than just a rejection of religion. Better to give such a thing another name and leaves atheism to mean nothing more than not believing in the supernatural.

Atheism does not mean not believing in the supernatural. This is yet another example of atheists being sloppy (and likely metaphysically and politically greedy) in their definitions. There are plenty of people who don't believe in a god yet do believe in the supernatural. (My neighbor, the Wiccan, perhaps, though I think she believes in a goddess.) When atheists themselves are this clumsy in their thinking about what they believe, it only makes matters more difficult for both sides.

So your example is somebody who believes in a goddess, and you yourself believe in a goddess but call yourself an atheist? I think you and I disagree about the definition of an atheist.

That's fine. So are you saying that you believe a person who believes in something supernatural, whether or not they believe in a god, that person cannot be an atheist? Are you saying atheism is not defined in response to theism, for you, but rather in response to belief in the supernatural? I just want to be clear on what you, Andrew, believe the definition of atheist and atheism to be. According to you, what is the definition of an atheist?

[Drewish]

According to you, what is the definition of an atheist?

Someone who accepts that when they die, that's it. If you don't believe in any sort of afterlife you're an atheist as far as I'm concerned.

I recognize that some people might say that there could be a deistic atheist by that definition, or somebody who believes in auras but is also an atheist, but there isn't. I assert that there is no person alive who simultaneous believes in God or New Age Healing who does not also believe in some form of continued existence after death. If you disagree please find me such a person as I will be shocked to find that they exist.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

According to you, what is the definition of an atheist?

Someone who accepts that when they die, that's it. If you don't believe in any sort of afterlife you're an atheist as far as I'm concerned.

I recognize that some people might say that there could be a deistic atheist by that definition, or somebody who believes in auras but is also an atheist, but there isn't. I assert that there is no person alive who simultaneous believes in God or New Age Healing who does not also believe in some form of continued existence after death. If you disagree please find me such a person as I will be shocked to find that they exist.

I can't agree with your definition, Andrew. An atheist has no belief in any god. End of.

It is quite feasible to believe in, or accept the possibility of, an afterlife without any belief in a god. Many people do just that. Quite a few of them call themselves atheists - and correctly.

Your argument mistakes cause for effect and is a non sequitur: all theists believe in an afterlife so anyone that believes in an afterlife is a theist. You might as well say that all cats have 4 legs so anything with four legs (including a pool table) is a cat.

[Drewish]

According to you, what is the definition of an atheist?

Someone who accepts that when they die, that's it. If you don't believe in any sort of afterlife you're an atheist as far as I'm concerned.

I recognize that some people might say that there could be a deistic atheist by that definition, or somebody who believes in auras but is also an atheist, but there isn't. I assert that there is no person alive who simultaneous believes in God or New Age Healing who does not also believe in some form of continued existence after death. If you disagree please find me such a person as I will be shocked to find that they exist.

I can't agree with your definition, Andrew. An atheist has no belief in any god. End of.

It is quite feasible to believe in, or accept the possibility of, an afterlife without any belief in a god. Many people do just that. Quite a few of them call themselves atheists - and correctly.

Your argument places cause before effect: all theists believe in an afterlife so anyone that believes in an afterlife is a theist. You might as well say that all cats have 4 legs so anything with four legs (including a pool table) is a cat.

Anyone who believes in ghosts and an afterlife isn't an atheist as far as I'm concerned. By your definition somebody who literally believed in the religion of the Jedi would be an atheist because "the force" isn't sentient. Mine means that if you don't have the balls to face your own mortality you don't get to call yourself an atheist, and I'll say as much to any sissy fairy tale believer who wants to claim they're an atheist.