Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Gallstones » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:55 pm

Seraph wrote:
Gallstones wrote:The US will never be a theocracy.
Just like China's economy will never be run along capitalist lines, and while the United Kingdom is a monarchy it can never be a democracy.
So? Change happens. There are always different and opposing influences acting on societies and nations. You can't arbitrarily pick one of those influences out and predict it the winner.

I think the Chinese realized that capitalism was the way to prosperity. That is a very practical concern.

My son is an indicative, if small sample, of the attitude the new crop of adults have for religion. He has no religious friends--even among those who attended RE and First Communion with him.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Gallstones » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:57 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
Seabass wrote:Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?
Keeping the nation from reverting into fucking relic veneration?
given the public cult to things like the originals of the Declaration of Independance and the constitution, the Liberty Bell, or the pilgrimages to Mount Vernon to see George Washington's own hairbrush and dentures, I'd say it's too late.
Funny, it is our veneration for our Bill of Rights and our political legacy that will prevent theocracy.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Gallstones » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:00 pm

I think Charlou has already mentioned this; tell me, given what we know about human nature, what happens when you try to drive significant concerns underground--does it kill them off?
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Gallstones » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:02 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
Seabass wrote:Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?
Keeping the nation from reverting into fucking relic veneration?
given the public cult to things like the originals of the Declaration of Independance and the constitution, the Liberty Bell, or the pilgrimages to Mount Vernon to see George Washington's own hairbrush and dentures, I'd say it's too late.
You forgot Elvis and Graceland. :coffee:
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Seth » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:05 pm

FBM wrote:It has been an xtian platform from the day it was found.
So what? It is precisely the fact that it is a "found" object that makes it subject to the protections of the First Amendment Free Exercise Clause. As a function of pure chance and circumstance, it became an object of veneration. Yes, Christian veneration, but if some array of debris had taken the form of a menorah or Star of David, the same principles would apply. Just because government is protecting an historical artifact that has religious meaning TO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, and to others, does not mean that government is "establishing" a religion. Government did not create the object, nor sanctify it, nor create a law demanding that people worship at its base. All government did is to preserve an artifact of the attack that THE PEOPLE have decided has religious significance. The people are expressly permitted to do this sort of thing, and their actions are fully protected against government interference by the Free Exercise Clause. Indeed, government has no authority to destroy or desecrate an object that is venerated by religious people unless it has a valid secular reason to do so that outweighs the religious rights of those who venerate the object.

This principle is seen in, for example, in the "voluntary" climbing ban and the various signs around Devil's Tower National Monument asking people to respect the fact that the volcanic plug is a venerated object of native American Indians. The government cannot ban climbing during times of religious observance by Indians because that would be an establishment of religion, i.e. favoring native American Indian religion over other religions. But the government can administer the site and spend government money putting up signs asking for cooperation and respect.

You see, not only does government have the duty of avoiding establishing religion, it also has an affirmative Constitutional duty to protect the free exercise of religion by the people, which means that it may not itself unduly interfere with religious practice, and it must AFFIRMATIVELY ACT to protect such free exercise against infringement by those who would deny free religious expression...like this atheist moron.
Atheists are responding to that fact.
The government not only has full authority to preserve the historical artifact, it has a duty to prevent atheists from infringing on the rights of religious individuals to venerate and worship at this icon.

So, this idiot is going to lose his case, and he's giving atheists a bad name for being an utter intolerant asshole. But that's nothing new when it comes to atheists I'm afraid.
You saw the images and link I posted on the previous page? What louder message do they carry but "God is on America's side because we're a Christian nation"? Have you forgotten that it was the religious right that put Dubya in the WH? String together a few presidencies like that and if that's not theocracy, it'll do until theocracy gets here.
Preserving historical artifacts and protecting the free exercise of religion is not "establishing religion" or creating a "theocracy," and those who argue that it is, like this idiot, are simply intolerant morons.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Gallstones » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:14 pm

Seth wrote:So, this idiot is going to lose his case, and he's giving atheists a bad name for being an utter intolerant asshole. But that's nothing new when it comes to [some] atheists I'm afraid.
Must be accurate.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by maiforpeace » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:49 pm

Seraph wrote:I am ambiguous on this issue. Yes, Blair Scott and the American Atheists will be viewed as a bunch of whingers - the atheist equivalent of christian evangelists - with their campaign.
The current president of American Atheists is David Silverman, not Blair Scott.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by hadespussercats » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:31 pm

Gallstones wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
hadespussercats wrote: Yes.

It was an attack on American soil. I'm not saying non-American victims don't deserve to be remembered too.
But you said, "American citizens". I'm not singling you out for criticism - I am sure it was a subconscious slip of the keys on your part - it's just that people over there tend to forget that 9/11 wasn't simply an attack on America. It was an attack on the whole western ethos of commerce, religious freedom and democracy. Something that, however much they may think they do, the US of A does not embody; but is simply a part of.
I haven't forgotten. And that very point, the diversity of nationalities, was made repeatedly when the bombing was fresh and being covered in the media.

I think that if a US flag is going to be affixed to the artifact then flags of other nations should be affixed as well--if the people of those nations care enough to want to do it.

Are there any flags at the site; formally flying on poles?
Of other nations? I don't think so-- though I have to admit, I avoid going down there. I understand the need for some people to make the visit, but the fact that the site is a tourist trap really bothers me. It probably shouldn't, but when people approach me and ask, "How do we get to Ground Zero?" it sets my teeth on edge.

I believe there are a number of US flags down there-- some formally hung, many in windows or hung by visitors.

J is in the neighborhood a lot these days-- a project he's working on is nearby. I'll ask him for more details.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by hadespussercats » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:48 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Strap the ol' starz'n'stripes to it. Cos y'all know jeebus was a Merkin, right! :roll:
Another flag note--

My husband (an architect here in NY) just told me another thing about the flag issue--

apparently, the ironworkers union here in the city will pretty much always drape a piece of steel with a state or US flag if they know the setting-in of the piece of steel will be a photo-op. This is related to the topping-off ceremony they do when the last piece of steel is put into place on a buiding project, when the piece will generally have not only a flag draped on it, but also a pine tree, called a tannenbaum (looks like an X-mas tree-- as you might expect from the name) that has a number of symbolic meanings.

Here's a wikipedia entry about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topping_out
Today, a non-religious but formal ceremony is often held to commemorate this milestone in the construction of a building. All tradesman on the job usually join in the celebration as well as the supervisors, representatives of the architecture and engineering firms, the owner or representatives of the owning organization, donors, and any VIPs that are invited. The ceremony is often parlayed into a media event for public relations purposes[3].

While the ceremony itself has no standard agenda, it usually includes the placing of an evergreen tree upon the structure to symbolize growth and bring luck. State and national flags are often raised atop the structure. It may take place during lunch time and can include a catered meal and entertainment. In large building construction, the topping out beam may be signed by the ironworker crew, or by local dignitaries depending on the importance of the building. Ironworkers may take this as an opportunity to publicise their union local. The beam is signed on the ground before it is hoisted into place by crane. The height of the ceremony takes place when the piece of steel is lifted into place and secured (although not completely). Often, the final piece of steel has little or no structural significance to the structure. After the ceremony is over, the piece of steel will be completely secured.

The topping out ceremony is similar to ship naming and launching ceremonies and probably of similar antiquity, and was perhaps done to placate the gods and to shield the building from harm.
I think it's important to note here that even though the tree might seem like an xtian symbol, since it looks like an xmas tree, it might not be for the people involved in the ceremony. Many ironworkers here in the city traditionally hail from the Iroquois or other indigenous tribes, and see the tree as a nod to the source of building resources.

[slight derail, but pertinent to some of the discussion of symbolism.]
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by drl2 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:24 pm

FOX News Facebook Page on 9/11 Cross Generates Death Threats Against Atheists
FOX News readers on Facebook started going off after Blair Scott, Communications Director for American Atheists, appeared on America Live with Megyn Kelly. Blair reports that when he returned home from his local FOX station for the interview that his voice mail was full of messages and his inbox had almost 200 hateful messages. “I can always tell when someone from American Atheists is on FOX news, because my Inbox explodes with hate email,” said Blair.

We can talk about the issues about this, but our friend William Hamby has put it well over at the Examiner.

Moderators on FOX News’ Facebook page had been trying diligently to delete the violent threats, but not before they were screen-captured by a diligent American Atheists member named Robert Posey.
Screen grabs of some of the quotes at the link.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:26 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Strap the ol' starz'n'stripes to it. Cos y'all know jeebus was a Merkin, right! :roll:
The flag was actually on a crane at the site, not attached to the cross.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by MiM » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:15 pm

Seth wrote:The atheist is an idiot, it's not a government "establishment" of religion, it's a historical artifact that has religious significance to some people. As a historical artifact, just like tens of thousands of other religious artifacts that have historical value, it has a place in a museum, irrespective of the fact that it happens to be in the form of a cross.
In this rare event, I have to agree with Seth. There is very little, if any, moral justification in the claim, and there is a hell of a lot of goodwill to loose. Thus the guy seems to behave like an idiot.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Ronja » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:01 pm

That "cross" is a historical fact: an artifact that happened. It was not purposely made, which for me makes all the difference. I feel very, very uneasy with any attempt to erase or edit history. Yes, I know that in practice history is written by the winners (whoever they happen to be in each instance), but intentionally demanding that a historical artifact be hidden from view, in a country that claims to be an open democracy - that goes too far for me.



My uneasiness with history revision has a lot to do with that my mom's aunts, uncles and cousins and millions of members of other minorities were erased from the Soviet history books that their offspring - my second cousins - studied in school. Their grandmothers and parents could tell them about being deported into Siberia for the "crime" of speaking the wrong language, but in the schools of Leningrad this aspect of Stalin's time did not exist.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Gallstones » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:47 pm

There has been mention on the internet, that the artifact is tainted having spent some time at......a church.
While there they sprinkled fundy dust on it daily.
I bet it was hit with some Holy Water a time or two too.
Beware fundy dust--it taints perfectly secular objects into religious power machines that will turn you religious.
Whole countries in fact.

Fact.
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Re: Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

Post by Gallstones » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:49 pm

The entire Memorial is a grave.
Not everyone who died ended up as remains enough for a proper funeral.
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The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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