Moving back to God

[devogue]

This "natural as breathing" faith of your grandmother was not "personal" at all! It was nothing but the result of a childhood spent having that faith crammed into her by her parents, priests and peers. It is a lie that was told to her so many times, with such dire (for all they were imaginary) consequences for disbelieving, that she was physically terrified to question any aspect of it.

Why are you so sure she was "terrified" to question any aspect of it? Your language is quite presumptive and emotive - was her faith "crammed" or was it lovingly passed on in time honoured fashion from one generation to the next? Were the "dire consequences" highlighted and focused upon, or were the more joyous, peaceful and positive aspects of the faith espoused?

I can't speak for her, but my local Catholic community was an invariably positive community. The terrors of hell fire were never dwelt upon - religion and belief on its own was not seen as a means of escaping hell fire, it was seen as a cherry picked template by which to live life nicely. Irish Catholicism is a strange, pragmatic beast - most towns now have "Vigil" Mass on Saturday night so people can have a lie in on Sunday (the Sabbath) after a feed of drink, and the clergy tacitly go along with this. Of course, all of the horrendous negatives of the institution of church can't be ignored, but your analysis of religious belief as a profoundly negative phenomenon is just wrong, IMO.

People like your grandmother are like swans - on the surface displaying placid, unquestioning faith; underneath, the same roiling mass of doubts and fears as the rest of us.

Oh, it was placid, unquestioning faith all the way down, believe me. That's what happens when you live within a community in which 99% of people take religion seriously and hardly never see the need to doubt it. And then when there are slight doubts about faith, the church can cherry pick a nice piece of scripture to show that what the person is feeling is only human and natural - thus dispelling the doubts.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

your analysis of religious belief as a profoundly negative phenomenon is just wrong, IMO.

Nice lies are still lies. And then...

Add up all the children that have gone without so that their parents could fill the collection plate on a Sunday. Factor in the wars in jeebus' name. Multiply by centuries of sexual abuse by "celibate" priests. Tot up the children taken forcibly from their unmarried mothers. Times by church-sanctioned homophobia. Raise it to the power of the millions in Africa with AIDS as a direct result of papal dictats on condom use.

...not negative at all, is it?


And that is just a few of the things wrong with one branch of one religion. As Stephen Fry quite rightly put it, "Religion - shit it!"

[devogue]

your analysis of religious belief as a profoundly negative phenomenon is just wrong, IMO.

Nice lies are still lies. And then...

Add up all the children that have gone without so that their parents could fill the collection plate on a Sunday. Factor in the wars in jeebus' name. Multiply by centuries of sexual abuse by "celibate" priests. Tot up the children taken forcibly from their unmarried mothers. Times by church-sanctioned homophobia. Raise it to the power of the millions in Africa with AIDS as a direct result of papal dictats on condom use.

...not negative at all, is it?


And that is just a few of the things wrong with one branch of one religion. As Stephen Fry quite rightly put it, "Religion - shit it!"

Ah, I should have said:

your analysis of religious belief on the personal level as a profoundly negative phenomenon is just wrong, IMO.

Sorry about that.

[Robert_S]

I hear you Dev. My mildly religious upbringing was, overall, a positive thing.

But I know too much and now there is me, my friends and family and the decency of people in general.. That's the only warmth I know, it's the only warmth I've really ever known. The whole religion thing was just a focal point for all that diffused goodness in the world.

You might, if you need to, seek out one of the less theologically dogmatic denominations. The Quaker meeting I attended a few times had an agnostic who only believed that fellowship was a good thing and the UU church in my town had a Discordian preacher for a while.

And I'll just leave this here in case anyone is interested.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Ah, I should have said:

your analysis of religious belief on the personal level as a profoundly negative phenomenon is just wrong, IMO.

Sorry about that.

In which case, the first part of my reply stands. Nice lies are still lies. Sadly, we have no way of knowing how your grandmother would have turned out had she never been introduced to religion as a child - I have an inkling that she wouldn't have been all that different though. Likewise, it is impossible to quantify such things as the "comfort" that people take from religion.

So, we are left with the macroscopic view; the effects of religion on society as a whole. It is the beatifically smiling hordes of grandmothers, with their passive, personal faiths, that legitimise the worst of religion on a global scale.

Religion IS evil. On every level. You cannot divorce the global atrocities in the name of some sky-daddy from the polite, personal, comforting faith of the individual. They are two sides of the same coin - and the coin is a fake!

[devogue]

Sadly, we have no way of knowing how your grandmother would have turned out had she never been introduced to religion as a child - I have an inkling that she wouldn't have been all that different though.

Sadly?

Happily, she "turned out" to be a wonderful woman who loved and who was loved. Her faith was important to her and she was a content and happy person.

Likewise, it is impossible to quantify such things as the "comfort" that people take from religion.

After 35 years of widowhood, at the age of 98, with all of her friends and contemporaries long dead, and lying in bed dying of Ovarian cancer she took a massive amount of comfort from her faith. I saw her and I have no doubt that while comfort is indeed unquantifiable, her faith gave her something very important, something she needed badly in her last days.

So, we are left with the macroscopic view; the effects of religion on society as a whole. It is the beatifically smiling hordes of grandmothers, with their passive, personal faiths, that legitimise the worst of religion on a global scale.

Religion IS evil. On every level. You cannot divorce the global atrocities in the name of some sky-daddy from the polite, personal, comforting faith of the individual. They are two sides of the same coin - and the coin is a fake!

Yes, I can divorce it.

Passive, personal faith with a live and let live nature (as my grandmother's was) is blameless and harmless. The actual personal adherence to the creed can be separated from the institution and the "family" in which the creed is shared. Over the millenia countless millions have lived good, honest, happy lives by adhering to the central tenets of the creed - "Love they neighbour as thyself", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", "Love your enemies", "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also" and so on. There is an inherent, radical goodness coursing through the New Testament, but just as humans have used politics, nationalism, patriotism to kick up wars, so the worst elements have used religion. If it wasn't religion it would be something else - that's just the way we are.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

So you cherry pick the nice bits of the NT and skip all of the OT bloodshed and such lines as "Unless a man hate his mother and his father..." and call that "The central tenets".

Who are you to say what the central tenets of catholicism are? And why does your opinion trump that of the inquisition?

There is inherent, radical goodness coursing through humanity. That the religions that humanity invents reflects that is no surprise. That it also reflects humanity's pettiness and patriarchal sexual jealousy is also to be expected.

Simply because similar atrocities are also committed in the name of political ideologies and national/racial identities does not affect the case against religion one iota. Having an itchy elbow in no way diminishes the itching in ones arse!

In fact, if you reread my initial post on this subject, you will spot that I didn't limit my condemnation of blind faith to religion...

Religion (or, indeed, any dogmatic belief system) is an exercise in doubt-management. It's far more about wanting than believing.

It is abrogating responsibility for your actions, or refusing to condemn the atrocities of others simply because they share your belief system, that is the evil inherent in even the most passive adherent of blind faith. The blindness is a deliberate blind eye turned towards what one would rage against if it were done by anyone else. Every catholic in Ireland is complicit in every abuse of power committed by every pædo-priest, sado-nun or gay-bashing bishop. The blood of every botched backstreet abortion is on the hands of every grandmother that blindly accepted that contraception is a sin.

[devogue]

So you cherry pick the nice bits of the NT and skip all of the OT bloodshed and such lines as "Unless a man hate his mother and his father..." and call that "The central tenets".

Who are you to say what the central tenets of catholicism are? And why does your opinion trump that of the inquisition?

Have you heard of the New Covenant?

There is inherent, radical goodness coursing through humanity. That the religions that humanity invents reflects that is no surprise. That it also reflects humanity's pettiness and patriarchal sexual jealousy is also to be expected.

Simply because similar atrocities are also committed in the name of political ideologies and national/racial identities does not affect the case against religion one iota. Having an itchy elbow in no way diminishes the itching in ones arse!

In fact, if you reread my initial post on this subject, you will spot that I didn't limit my condemnation of blind faith to religion...

Religion (or, indeed, any dogmatic belief system) is an exercise in doubt-management. It's far more about wanting than believing.

You are wrong to equate other forms of ideological dogma with religious dogma. Ideological dogma involves a truly selfish, narrow-minded form of arrogance - for instance, the rabid Irish Republican and the fervent Northern Irish Unionist hold staunch views on the jurisdiction of mere land - "I want it and you can fuck off" is the attitude. Most ideologies are based on negativity and conflict. (Christian) religious devotion is different - yes, it's a selfish worldview in that the adherent necessarily must claim it as the complete truth, but beyond that the actual tenets of the faith promote love, forgiveness, peace and harmony - all positives.

It is abrogating responsibility for your actions, or refusing to condemn the atrocities of others simply because they share your belief system, that is the evil inherent in even the most passive adherent of blind faith.

I defy you to find one ordinary Irish Catholic who is not disgusted, or who has refused to condemn the atrocious institutional crimes committed within the church system. The failure of the Irish Catholic church was a catastrophic failure of checks, balances and managment - I'm not for a second condoning the crimes, but I would say it was a bureaucratic and institutional disaster rather than a religious disaster.

The blindness is a deliberate blind eye turned towards what one would rage against if it were done by anyone else. Every catholic in Ireland is complicit in every abuse of power committed by every pædo-priest, sado-nun or gay-bashing bishop. The blood of every botched backstreet abortion is on the hands of every grandmother that blindly accepted that contraception is a sin.

There was no blind eye turned because until the crimes were exposed nobody for one second thought there was a problem! There were some truly despicable men and women who abused the power inherent in the bureaucracy of the institution to destroy lives, of that there is no doubt. Are my grandmother, father, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters, friends and enemies to blame for that? Of course not. The failure within the church was human - the religion can be separated from the crimes. Was it so wrong that people placed a high level of trust, prestige and reverence in people who bodily represented the highest ideals of a local community? Is it those peoples' fault that trust was shattered so badly?

[devogue]

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/PS3.htm

[Coito ergo sum]

I've realised lately that I now miss the ritual, spectacle, comfort, and warmth of religion. I don't know how, but in the years to come I'm going to try to rediscover blind faith.

Maybe you can just put on a couple of eye patches...

[klr]

This "natural as breathing" faith of your grandmother was not "personal" at all! It was nothing but the result of a childhood spent having that faith crammed into her by her parents, priests and peers. It is a lie that was told to her so many times, with such dire (for all they were imaginary) consequences for disbelieving, that she was physically terrified to question any aspect of it.

Why are you so sure she was "terrified" to question any aspect of it? Your language is quite presumptive and emotive - was her faith "crammed" or was it lovingly passed on in time honoured fashion from one generation to the next? Were the "dire consequences" highlighted and focused upon, or were the more joyous, peaceful and positive aspects of the faith espoused?

In my experience/observation, it was perfectly possible for both to be true, such was the level of indoctrination, and social control enjoyed by the Catholic Church. Passing on the faith by parents and family was carried out to the point where it was done unquestioningly, all day every day, as part of "normal life".

[devogue]

This "natural as breathing" faith of your grandmother was not "personal" at all! It was nothing but the result of a childhood spent having that faith crammed into her by her parents, priests and peers. It is a lie that was told to her so many times, with such dire (for all they were imaginary) consequences for disbelieving, that she was physically terrified to question any aspect of it.

Why are you so sure she was "terrified" to question any aspect of it? Your language is quite presumptive and emotive - was her faith "crammed" or was it lovingly passed on in time honoured fashion from one generation to the next? Were the "dire consequences" highlighted and focused upon, or were the more joyous, peaceful and positive aspects of the faith espoused?

In my experience/observation, it was perfectly possible for both to be true, such was the level of indoctrination, and social control enjoyed by the Catholic Church. Passing on the faith by parents and family was carried out to the point where it was done unquestioningly, all day every day, as part of "normal life".

Yes, and it was/is perfectly possible for someone to be indoctrinated/brainwashed or whatever way you want to put it, and still live for 98 incredibly happy years.

[klr]

This "natural as breathing" faith of your grandmother was not "personal" at all! It was nothing but the result of a childhood spent having that faith crammed into her by her parents, priests and peers. It is a lie that was told to her so many times, with such dire (for all they were imaginary) consequences for disbelieving, that she was physically terrified to question any aspect of it.

Why are you so sure she was "terrified" to question any aspect of it? Your language is quite presumptive and emotive - was her faith "crammed" or was it lovingly passed on in time honoured fashion from one generation to the next? Were the "dire consequences" highlighted and focused upon, or were the more joyous, peaceful and positive aspects of the faith espoused?

In my experience/observation, it was perfectly possible for both to be true, such was the level of indoctrination, and social control enjoyed by the Catholic Church. Passing on the faith by parents and family was carried out to the point where it was done unquestioningly, all day every day, as part of "normal life".

Yes, and it was/is perfectly possible for someone to be indoctrinated/brainwashed or whatever way you want to put it, and still live for 98 incredibly happy years.

But ... So what? I can think of many people whose lives were twisted, blighted, or just outright destroyed by that self same indoctrination. And that could be something what was done to them directly, and/or indirectly via the actions of others who were also indoctrinated.

And how do you know that your grandmother mightn't have been just as happy without religion?

[devogue]

But ... So what? I can think of many people whose lives were twisted, blighted, or just outright destroyed by that self same indoctrination. And that could be something what was done to them directly, and/or indirectly via the actions of others who were also indoctrinated.

I don't deny that religion can mess up people's lives, but the point I am trying to make is that a great many people, perhaps the vast majority of people do derive comfort and a sense of contentment from it.

And how do you know that your grandmother mightn't have been just as happy without religion?

She may well have been. She might also have been happy if she had a garden rather than a concrete back yard. I'll never know.

[Feck]

I don't want to argue about Dev's grandma or the evils of the church .... but I don't see how you can just turn on a faith ..or how going through the motions and ritual of a Faith you don't have can lead to happiness . Surely that's like going to see a band you hate play live at a stadium . You know everyone else is having a great time , you can go through the motions you can cheer along with everyone else and even try to get lost in the hysteria but deep down it is all based on something you Know you don't like .