Bill Maher - Atheism is Not a Religion

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

Or herding cats.

[Drewish]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

I'd agree, but by my estimation atheists (like so many others) tend to overestimate how much of an individual they are.

[Bella Fortuna]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

I'd agree, but by my estimation atheists (like so many others) tend to overestimate how much of an individual they are.

Shut up, I'm as unique as anyone else!

[Pappa]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

That's making the assumption that atheists are somehow non-comformists. Really the only thing all atheists have in common is their lack of belief in god(s). Perhaps the reason they're so difficult to herd is because they can be so different from each other in other ways. If you took another completely arbitrary section of humans, say people who don't like carrots, I expect they'd be equally as unherdable.

[Tero]

Yeah, they would be really easy to herd if they liked carrots. They would never see the stick, virtually as invisible as Jesus.

[apophenia]

Well, atheists also have the concept of (a) God, and the belief that they don't have a belief in one. I would not agree that an indian in the Amazon rain forest who has never been exposed to the concept is a bona fide atheist, imho. Atheism is nothing if not self-conscious of itself. I view atheism as primarily a social identity — a way of identifying who you are, and who you are not; of what you believe, and do not; of whom you share like affinities, and whom you do not. Unfortunately, when things take on a social dimension, and an identity is shared by a group, various features of social institutionalization follow, whether those are strictly religious features, or merely secular associations. They have a tendency to look somewhat religious because religions, too, are social institutions, so the two inevitably are going to share some traits.

Regarding Audley's description of what a religion is, and especially the part about them shitting on their neighbors, not all religions or religious are like that. It's just the ones that do get all the attention, and deservedly so. (And speaking from an evolutionary perspective, social groups that do shit on their neighbors generally have a leg up on those that don't in terms of successfully putting their paw prints on the collective gene pool. It's unfortunate, but I suspect it's a truism.)

Even though I do worship a goddess, I generally identify as an atheist, and don't exclude myself from that pool. Part being that I share many of the values and beliefs that pure atheists share regarding some kinds of religious practice and the behavior of certain religious types who explicitly identify as theists. I also think that, to most atheists, theism involves belief in a creator god to whom they have obligations and such; my goddess, is neither a creator god — in the same sense — nor am I obligated in any way to her. If I go my way and she goes hers, no biggie. I don't think that's the type of god worship which motivates most atheists to take up the name atheist as a part of their identity. I can't say I've ever asked, however; by all means, let me know if you feel differently.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm an atheist because I simply don't believe in any god or gods. That's the extent of it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

I'd agree, but by my estimation atheists (like so many others) tend to overestimate how much of an individual they are.

This is true too. Much like punkers getting piercings and tattoos to express their individuality, only to find they've donned a uniform, too ... just one more to their liking.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

That's making the assumption that atheists are somehow non-comformists. Really the only thing all atheists have in common is their lack of belief in god(s). Perhaps the reason they're so difficult to herd is because they can be so different from each other in other ways. If you took another completely arbitrary section of humans, say people who don't like carrots, I expect they'd be equally as unherdable.

Indeed, until you look at the motivation for their self-identification with the group. I'm not saying that all atheists are in fact non-conformists, but the fact that many of them assume non-conformity to be a subsidiary connotation of their atheism means that often they will disagree simply to avoid standing with a majority.

The matter of describing something as complex as a human social group must necessarily be shorn of detail when it is reduced to a fifteen-word sentence, but honestly I prefer brevity and incisiveness with detailed follow-up where needed. I'm too old to believe that all the cool kids are rebels.

[Svartalf]

You're obviously using the wrong kind of rope, THump.

[Drewish]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

I'd agree, but by my estimation atheists (like so many others) tend to overestimate how much of an individual they are.

This is true too. Much like punkers getting piercings and tattoos to express their individuality, only to find they've donned a uniform, too ... just one more to their liking.

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with having a group or a uniform. It's just a different culture. But if you're going to say that some people are more 'true' atheists than others based on their adherence to that culture, then you're turning atheism into something more than just a rejection of religion. Better to give such a thing another name and leaves atheism to mean nothing more than not believing in the supernatural.

[hadespussercats]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

I bet one could piss up a rope pretty easily, if the rope were made of a moisture-wicking fiber.

[apophenia]

Forming a movement of nonconformists seems strangely close to trying to piss up a rope.

I'd agree, but by my estimation atheists (like so many others) tend to overestimate how much of an individual they are.

This is true too. Much like punkers getting piercings and tattoos to express their individuality, only to find they've donned a uniform, too ... just one more to their liking.

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with having a group or a uniform. It's just a different culture. But if you're going to say that some people are more 'true' atheists than others based on their adherence to that culture, then you're turning atheism into something more than just a rejection of religion. Better to give such a thing another name and leaves atheism to mean nothing more than not believing in the supernatural.

Atheism does not mean not believing in the supernatural. This is yet another example of atheists being sloppy (and likely metaphysically and politically greedy) in their definitions. There are plenty of people who don't believe in a god yet do believe in the supernatural. (My neighbor, the Wiccan, perhaps, though I think she believes in a goddess.) When atheists themselves are this clumsy in their thinking about what they believe, it only makes matters more difficult for both sides.

[Bella Fortuna]

There are plenty of people who don't believe in a god yet do believe in the supernatural. (My neighbor, the Wiccan, perhaps, though I think she believes in a goddess.) When atheists themselves are this clumsy in their thinking about what they believe, it only makes matters more difficult for both sides.

This describes a good friend of mine, who calls herself an atheist yet firmly believes that her dead mother is still 'watching over' her. Makes me want to SCREAM!

[apophenia]

There are plenty of people who don't believe in a god yet do believe in the supernatural. (My neighbor, the Wiccan, perhaps, though I think she believes in a goddess.) When atheists themselves are this clumsy in their thinking about what they believe, it only makes matters more difficult for both sides.

This describes a good friend of mine, who calls herself an atheist yet firmly believes that her dead mother is still 'watching over' her. Makes me want to SCREAM!

Just out of curiosity, why does it affect you that way emotionally?