Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being — Truth or Fiction

[JimC]

I can remember my Dad once saying something like "You know, sometimes I wish I could believe; I know that believers get a lot of comfort from their religion when times are hard..."

But he knew that he couldn't go down that path...

[Seth]

I can remember my Dad once saying something like "You know, sometimes I wish I could believe; I know that believers get a lot of comfort from their religion when times are hard..."

But he knew that he couldn't go down that path...

Funny, because I've said exactly the same thing from time to time.

[apophenia]

Better to be Socrates and unhappy than a pig and happy.

You really think so?
You don't think that intelligence is a curse and a scourge and the enemy of happiness?

Definitely not, if you aren't interested in the truth then don't seek, if you are scared of the consequence then don't seek it but if you value knowing the truth you value consequences.

Are there some things, on a personal level, I'd be happier not knowing? Of course but that doesn't mean that I don't value knowing the truth.

Daniel Dennett made an interesting remark in "The Four Horsemen," to the effect that he agreed that there might be things which we are better off not knowing, and that in such cases, a position of willful ignorance might be preferable to study and knowledge. I think he was alluding to examples of both major threats, such as the atomic bomb, or perhaps even cumulative lesser threats, such as scientific abuses and ethical violations from eugenics to the Tuskegee syphilis study. I personally didn't find his point persuasive (and Vox Day makes a similar incrimination against science in general in his book The Irrational Atheist), but I'll leave it to you to judge the merits of Dennett's conjecture.

[apophenia]

In general, given the human animal's propensity for glib excuses, rationalizing away truths and generally spectacular record of both confabulation and sophistry, I rather suspect all of you could become believers if you wanted to do so, you're simply unwilling to take the steps necessary to achieve that end. Anyone who has attended large tent revivals, pentecostal celebrations, associated with extremely charismatic individuals, or, for Americans, lived through puberty and high school, or even attended a good mass knows in their bones that reason is not an absolute firewall against belief, and that we often find ourselves doing and believing the stupidest things for the most mundane and banal reasons.

One of my sisters, the one who's smart and bookish, sent me an email where people were supposedly popping kernels of corn with a collection of 3 or more cell phones. Of course, it took almost no research at all to determine that it was a hoax, perpetuated by marketers, but all the same, this reasonably savvy, technically literate individual was readily conned by something she should have known better than to believe (she has a two year certificate in electronics from a technical school).

(ETA: I'll have to look up the finding, but one study found that college educated people were actually more susceptible to believing in woo, not less.)

[Animavore]

In general, given the human animal's propensity for glib excuses, rationalizing away truths and generally spectacular record of both confabulation and sophistry, I rather suspect all of you could become believers if you wanted to do so, you're simply unwilling to take the steps necessary to achieve that end. Anyone who has attended large tent revivals, pentecostal celebrations, associated with extremely charismatic individuals, or, for Americans, lived through puberty and high school, or even attended a good mass knows in their bones that reason is not an absolute firewall against belief, and that we often find ourselves doing and believing the stupidest things for the most mundane and banal reasons.

It didn't work on me as a child it's unlikely to work on me now. I never liked being in church. I never liked being dragged there. I hated the pointless standing, kneeling and muttering prayers. I hated having to make up confessions which I didn't understand why I was even making. Some people simply don't like or take to these things like some people don't like metal music.

[apophenia]

A thought occurs to me, that it may even be possible that those who are most certain of their invulnerability may actually be most susceptible, for numerous reasons, from dogmatic and inflexible attitudes to an inability to see certain live possibilities, in line with the introspection illusion and the bias blind-spot, that that attitude itself may be a symptom of greater possibility of conversion, in spite of itself. (I recall notions about those who think themselves immune to hypnosis being the most vulnerable, but I suspect that's just a bit of folklore stuck in my craw.)

[Animavore]

[Animavore]

Actually, just thinking, illusionist Derren Brown done a programme once called Messiah where he went around convincing 'real' psychics, remote viewers and preachers he was one of them. His test with the preacher was to convert 4 atheists (Derren's an atheist himself and the person who made me a sceptic, I was big into woo and Buddhism/Taoism at the time when I read his book) with the power of touch, laying of hands and calling Jesus and he did it an' all. They all thought they experienced Christ and shit and became emotional (he 'deprogrammed' them after). So there might be something to what you say, Apophenia.

[Seabass]

Well, dumb people are often happy. They just need bread and circuses.

That's not what the article says at all. In fact, it says almost the exact opposite. What the article actually shows is that there tends to be an inverse relationship between religiosity and mental health, happiness, prosperity, education, and law-abidance (with the caveat that atheists tend to commit more suicides than their theist counterparts).

Turns out, "dumb people are happy" is just a fib pessimists and negative people tell themselves to boost their egos. Which is what I've always suspected. Judging by what I've seen in my lifetime, smarter, better educated people definitely tend to be happier.

[Hermit]

Well, dumb people are often happy. They just need bread and circuses.

That's not what the article says at all. In fact, it says almost the exact opposite. What the article actually shows is that there tends to be an inverse relationship between religiosity and mental health, happiness, prosperity, education, and law-abidance (with the caveat that atheists tend to commit more suicides than their theist counterparts).

Under the subheading "Life Satisfaction and Psychological Well-Being" Zuckerman wrote: "...a preponderance of studies do indicate that secular people don’t seem to fare as well as their religious peers when it comes to selected aspects of psychological well-being..." That, per the opening post, is what we are meant to discuss in this thread.

[Audley Strange]

You know what there is an old saying that pre-empts all this.

"Ignorance is bliss."

I'd say that is true, the less you know the less you know you don't know.

[Robert_S]

You know what there is an old saying that pre-empts all this.

"Ignorance is bliss."

I'd say that is true, the less you know the less you know you don't know.

...until what you don't know bites you in the arse.

[Ronja]

In general, given the human animal's propensity for glib excuses, rationalizing away truths and generally spectacular record of both confabulation and sophistry, I rather suspect all of you could become believers if you wanted to do so, you're simply unwilling to take the steps necessary to achieve that end.

I'm thinking about the six people I personally know/knew best in this regard: my mother, father, MiM, our two daughters and myself. Both genetics and family environment play a role here, of course, and make it likely that we all resemble each other. However, I would still say that three of us: my father, MiM and Younger Daughter all seem to me of the "congenital atheist" type - simply incapable of believing in any woo (though sometimes briefly taken in by a tall tale about what someone has done (gossip) or an intriguing scientific finding, which later is found to be false).

I don't think my dad would have been able to believe, even if he had tried, and I suspect the same of MiM, though he should speak for himself. With YD time will tell - she is ten now - but she sounds like the concept of god(s) seems utterly illogical and unnecessary to her, and that has always been so, as long as she has been capable of expressing thoughts on the matter. She seems to find meaning, even solace, in the idea of the Circle of Life: that when we die, our bodies turn into the grass that feeds the hares, which again feed the foxes etc. That seems to be her concept of "eternal life" and she seems content and at peace with that ATM.

I have been a devout born-again xian. My mom again has always been a pronounced Kantian, yet she seems to not dare to take the step into atheism, but apparently has talked herself back into some kind of belief repeatedly. Elder Daughter's attitude has thus far been mostly agnostic, with a touch of "what if", at times. I get the feeling that she might become at least somewhat religious at some point of her life - but that will not necessarily happen, either.

Having been a born-again xian and then having made the almost 20 year journey into atheism I cannot swear that I could not lapse into some sort of supernatural belief, but I do find it extremely unlikely. Mostly because I would need to "unlearn" the whole process of skepticism and letting go of ideas that do not hold for scrutiny - I would have to develop a completely different style of thinking about things, especially evidence.

Anyone who has attended large tent revivals, pentecostal celebrations, associated with extremely charismatic individuals, or, for Americans, lived through puberty and high school, or even attended a good mass knows in their bones that reason is not an absolute firewall against belief, and that we often find ourselves doing and believing the stupidest things for the most mundane and banal reasons.

And yet - phenomena and experiences like that can also develop into something that makes us feel more or less literally physically sick, because we see them for what they are: manipulation. In the case of a rock concert I do not feel nausea, because there seldom has been a "you must do/think X" message at the ones I have attended. But watching any kind of religious revival, I feel ready to puke, because the motives of the preachers etc. are so blatant and usually mostly self-serving.

(ETA: I'll have to look up the finding, but one study found that college educated people were actually more susceptible to believing in woo, not less.)

Did they check if susceptibility correlated with area of study? I could easily believe that studying science would have a different average effect than studying humanities/arts.

[hadespussercats]

Re- being college educated and believing in woo-- There's a community listserve for parents in my neighborhood (a small enclave of mostly white upper-middle-class to wealthy sorts carved out of a larger, less exclusive community-- J and I don't fit in that well, but being white and having a lot of education makes us gentry, I suppose.) Anyway, the number of anti-vaccers, homeopathy-users, etc. amongst these people is shocking and disheartening.

Lately there's been a discussion about hypnosis or acupuncture to cure one of the local fathers of his smoking habit. Maybe this isn't total woo, but it makes me roll my eyes hard. Still, the placebo effect can be strong-- maybe just strong enough to help someone bear those first two weeks. No worse than offering that trouble up to God, I suppose. But not really any better, either.

I don't know. Sometimes I find totemic imagery or "lucky" rituals helpful. While I value reason, sometimes my emotions are too much for it and I need these tricks.

There you go. A whole bunch of anecdote with little point. We aim to serve!

[Audley Strange]

You know what there is an old saying that pre-empts all this.

"Ignorance is bliss."

I'd say that is true, the less you know the less you know you don't know.

...until what you don't know bites you in the arse.

Not if you are unaware of it.