Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

[Gallstones]

What's printed on money is something that we grew up with. It hardly has the emotional or ideological impact of the 9/11 memorial. Gallstones, would you be OK with the gummit spending tax dollars erecting xtian monuments across the country to commemorate whatever they decided was symbolic of being American? If we give them this big one, what chance is there of stopping them from continuing to do so? I see a theocracy developing unless someone puts up meaningful resistance. Nobody is denying any of the survivors their right to hold religious services. But I do think we need to deny the Babble-thumpers this most powerful and lasting platform from which to spew their nonsense about being patriotic means being xtian.

The government is never going to do that.
I'm pretty sure that the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence define officially what is American.

This artifact is not a big anything and will lead to nothing. The Bill of Rights forbids it. The Supreme Court has upheld the separation on more than one occasion.

The US will never be a theocracy. The only reason the placement of this artifact is a platform is because American Atheists are making it into one. If they let it be, then nothing more than a piece of I beam with names on it will be seen outside a memorial and museum. Christians think they see Jesus and Mary in objects all the time. Those occurrences are opportunities for the owners of the objects to make some money--until the interest dies, as it always does.

[Robert_S]

The US won't be an outright theocracy, but our government and politicians will continue to give special privileges to the religious.

[hadespussercats]

The US won't be an outright theocracy, but our government and politicians will continue to give special privileges to the religious.

Unless those religious are looking to build a mosque a few blocks away, around a corner.

Don't get me wrong-- I might not be upset about the steel girder cross, but there's plenty about this situation that stinks. I'd say, "stinks to high heaven," but that's the problem,huh?

[Hermit]

The US won't be an outright theocracy, but our government and politicians will continue to give special privileges to the religious.

... which will amount to the same thing in the end unless the de facto erosion of the separation between church and state is halted.

[FBM]

It has been an xtian platform from the day it was found. Atheists are responding to that fact. You saw the images and link I posted on the previous page? What louder message do they carry but "God is on America's side because we're a Christian nation"? Have you forgotten that it was the religious right that put Dubya in the WH? String together a few presidencies like that and if that's not theocracy, it'll do until theocracy gets here.

[Tyrannical]

I sometimes think Atheists start their day with "How can I annoy more people"

[Robert_S]

I sometimes think Atheists start their day with "How can I annoy more people"

Funny, I think the same thing about people who want to take money from me to support their religious views.

[Svartalf]

Why are American atheist groups so petty about things like this? If they're not whining over a nativity scene they're crying about Jesus licence plates.

You now have the option to have "In God We Trust" on Indiana license plates. Most people don't ask for it.

but do inhabitants of Ft Knox get to have "In Gold we trust"?

[Svartalf]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat. Let them have their cross for crying out loud. Don't these people have bigger fish to fry?

Keeping the nation from reverting into fucking relic veneration?

given the public cult to things like the originals of the Declaration of Independance and the constitution, the Liberty Bell, or the pilgrimages to Mount Vernon to see George Washington's own hairbrush and dentures, I'd say it's too late.

[Hermit]

The US will never be a theocracy.

Just like China's economy will never be run along capitalist lines, and while the United Kingdom is a monarchy it can never be a democracy.

[Seth]

The atheist is an idiot, it's not a government "establishment" of religion, it's a historical artifact that has religious significance to some people. As a historical artifact, just like tens of thousands of other religious artifacts that have historical value, it has a place in a museum, irrespective of the fact that it happens to be in the form of a cross.

In fact, of all the overtly religious artifacts (like famous religious art) that is owned by and held for public display in museums, this particular artifact was not "created" by government as an overt meddling in religion. That moron might as well say that the Mount Holy Cross, a mountain in Colorado that happens to have ravines on one face that fill with snow in the formation of a cross must be dynamited to prevent a display of a cross.

This is a perfect example of the gross misunderstanding of some atheists when it comes to public displays of religion. The First Amendment does NOT require that government extirpate all examples of religious icons or displays on public property, it says precisely the opposite. It says that the people, in this case the rescue workers at Ground Zero, may freely display their religious faith when and where they like, and this is a classic example of an accidental object becoming an object of religious veneration through the forces of history, and not through some attempt to establish religion by the government.

As a historical artifact of enormous public value, the government would be remiss in its duties if it failed to preserve it and put it on public display.

[Gallstones]

One third of those killed on 9/11 in New York were not Christians. Where are their religious symbols?

The primary value of this "cross" isn't as a religious symbol and the Memorial is not for a religious reason. It is an artifact of the event, a physical object that was in place when the event occurred and standing in it's configuration in the aftermath.

If other religions want to include something symbolic to honor people of those religions who died then they can propose ideas to whomever makes the decisions for the Memorial. How do we know that there is no such thing already? Maybe they aren't getting the publicity.

Not getting outraged over a symbol does not equate to having a passive attitude to intrusion of religion into public policy. It is a piece of a building, a building rendered significant from an event. The Memorial is the event, not the objects. The objects are what we have to remind and reflect and document.

[Gallstones]

Strap the ol' starz'n'stripes to it. Cos y'all know jeebus was a Merkin, right!

Regardless of the take on the girder, the flag at least is an appropriate memorial for an attack on American citizens.

372 of the people that died in the attacks weren't American. 67 came from the UK. Thankyou.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties ... casualties

Yes.

It was an attack on American soil. I'm not saying non-American victims don't deserve to be remembered too.

But you said, "American citizens". I'm not singling you out for criticism - I am sure it was a subconscious slip of the keys on your part - it's just that people over there tend to forget that 9/11 wasn't simply an attack on America. It was an attack on the whole western ethos of commerce, religious freedom and democracy. Something that, however much they may think they do, the US of A does not embody; but is simply a part of.

I haven't forgotten. And that very point, the diversity of nationalities, was made repeatedly when the bombing was fresh and being covered in the media.

I think that if a US flag is going to be affixed to the artifact then flags of other nations should be affixed as well--if the people of those nations care enough to want to do it.

Are there any flags at the site; formally flying on poles?

[Gallstones]

It has been an xtian platform from the day it was found. Atheists are responding to that fact. You saw the images and link I posted on the previous page? What louder message do they carry but "God is on America's side because we're a Christian nation"? Have you forgotten that it was the religious right that put Dubya in the WH? String together a few presidencies like that and if that's not theocracy, it'll do until theocracy gets here.

Hasn't there been some fraying of the string?

I think you have to be here to see what actually goes on with people to know who is gaining ground in the push pull of religion v secularism.

The Catholic Church in town is down to two weekend Masses from five; down one priest from two.
They aren't taking in enough in tithes to repair the rectory after it was damaged four years ago.

When I wrote my essay for the newspaper and called the Bible a book of myth, no one slashed my tires or threw rocks through my window. I did find out from a cousin that a person contacted him to relay a message to me of agreement.

[Seabass]

The US will never be a theocracy.

Just like China's economy will never be run along capitalist lines, and while the United Kingdom is a monarchy it can never be a democracy.

It has been an xtian platform from the day it was found. Atheists are responding to that fact. You saw the images and link I posted on the previous page? What louder message do they carry but "God is on America's side because we're a Christian nation"? Have you forgotten that it was the religious right that put Dubya in the WH? String together a few presidencies like that and if that's not theocracy, it'll do until theocracy gets here.

Theocracy? Seriously?

I take neither of you actually lives here?